How will the new "game changer cars" affect the current cars and class?

[BiggJim]

^^ Valid points Nikal!

Again we are looking at this from a considering getting into it perspective. The comparison with class 10 and the jump between a 33 and 35" tire is a little different than a 30-33. Especially given the fact the driveline in a competitive 10 already has 934 CV's and a drivetrain that is capable of handling the additional loads. The suspension geometry can be dealt with to an extent and will be overcome with a heavy budget and if the rules allow. Most car builders build a car and package around the tire size including clearance and travel at full compression. Yes, you can toss 33's on a UTV but as with all forms of racing: unless regulated someone will redesign the mousetrap to accommodate the new allowances and then you have a disparity in the cars.

Now take a privteer with a current, competitive XP built in the last year that say ran up front at the worlds on 30's (I know of one). Guy has say $60-70K tied up in it and now he is behind HP wise due to a turbo. Next model year say a 1200CC Turbo comes out with 30 HP more and a gearbox and say bigger CV's that can handle the load in those bigger driveline parts from the factory. His less than a year old car is now possibly outdated and worth considerably less as a race car. Then let them have 33's and have guys with budgets build them. What happens to all those 30" tired belt driven 1000cc naturally aspirated cars? In class 10 you can change whatever you want to be competitive but ironically it's usually a small update from a H pattern to a sequential as the allowances in the class don't offer revolutionary changes like belt to gearbox or 800-900-1000cc to 100cc turbo to ???

As a person looking in with interest: It seems a lot of folks are concerned with how fast the UTV's are compared to other classes and the tire argument always trends the way of: If we had a bigger tire, we'd really give the class x cars a run..."? I get it from an ego perspective but they are not racing other classes... As a perspective racer I am just trying to figure out how a guy who just dumped $60-80K on a new car last year or in the last 6 mos sees this vetting out? The new stuff is coming so either it's considered now or just as with all the other developments, it will slide in and the greater the difference the less cars you'll see racing.

If budgets and time were not a concern for everyone, then who care? But the UTV class supposedly can be raced competitively on a realistic budget (at least 300 posts have said that)... So why not limit the rules to allow current cars to be competitive over the next 3-4 years when these new vehicles come out? Give the guys with greater resources a class if they choose and give the guys with existing hardware the ability to race against like cars without additional expense.

I also believe in Santa, less government and the right to bear arms so maybe I don't belong in the UTV class. I just want to know where the field is going before we decide get into it...

BIG JIM

With all due respect: The cars and rules are changing due to chasing the manufacturers and as they increase performance with no regard to classes or rules; the bar will be raised and it seems with no regard to the cars racing. As an outsider: If the rules were the rules and not following the mfr's direction then the racers could allow or disallow certain things to allow the cars to remain competitive. In this case the rules are adapting to the manufacturers so there is no end in sight as they keep trying to capture market share.

What happens if/when someone releases a 1200CC turbo? What happens when they give 4 teams those cars? Evolution drives the market but unless I misunderstand this isn't prototype racing and the beauty and growth of the class has been in the fact that the cars are all comparable and the relative expense has been less than other classes of racing. If it continues evolving to chase the mfr's and they have no regard except sales and marketing then the class is not for us.

Oddly if you compare UTV's to GP bikes they at least build the bikes to hit a class format they race in and if someone builds a rotary xyz that pushes that format, the sanctioning bodies exclude that from the existing class formats to level the field or build a class if the need is there. Would they allow a 625CC in the 500CC class or forced induction because mfr XYZ came up with it.

The bottom line is the manufacturers do not care about the racing side as that is marketing. They build what will sell and give it to those that can help sell it. If the community cannot create standards for the racing side then IMHO it seems destined to fail. Like I said: I just wanted input and the more I hear the less the growth and competitiveness seems sustainable based on comments.

Thanks again for the input

IMHO....You will likely not see a UTE that is 1200cc's. The OEM's were the major push behind UTE's and the current helmet laws that have put in place. If an OEM had a 1200cc coming they would have pushed to make that law start @ 1200cc's not 1000. Personally I believe 1200cc is a pipe dream created by HYPE.

 

[NIKAL]

Nikal, not trying to be argumentive, but I have to disagree with you on why this class is growing. It is not the manufacturers that have built this class up, but rather it is a comfortable platform that the newer racers are used to, and feel that they are able to build and compete in. Remember that the sxs market has exploded over the last few years compared to other motorsports markets. Most of the racers have never seen a dime from polaris/can am and really don't expect to. What BITD needs to decide, is if this is polaris's/can am's class, or BITD's.

No taken as argumentative as all. Yes I agree the platform and the availability that anyone can buy one, and modify it to race is what brought many to the this class. The UTV class even though in cost is not entry level, the concept is entry level and that too is why so many start here. But IMO its the manufacture support that continues the growth and support those who are here. And the manufacture does not have to be just the vehicle manufacture. There are so many aftermarket UTV part manufactures involved and willing to support the racers. You dont see that support in any other class.

I dont know how long you have been in the sport, but you might remember when the manufactures were in class 7 & class 8.(Mini & Heavy Metal) Those classes were booming! When they bailed those classes died, and are still pretty dead. Those class in recent years have evolved into 7200 & 6100 and are picking back up without manufacture support. Remember when BITD had Ford supporting the Stock truck & SUV classes? They were huge! Even Rob Mac was racing in it and it was those classes that spawn and helped develop the Raptor. Then Ford pulled out and the stock class was to expensive and everyone found it cheaper to race in other classes.

I know as I have and still do deal with product, and financial sponsors in off-road. Getting sponsors in the UTV market is like fishing in a barrel compared to getting sponsors in a 1600 or 5/1600 limited class. In one week I could have 5 product deals signed for a UTV vs. the 1 I might have for a limited buggy class. The UTV market is hot, and there are 10X the companies involved in UTV's vs. other race specific classes. So yes you might have $60K invested in a UTV, but if you have any marketing skill you could easily wipe $10-12K off that bill. Try doing that in a 1600 or 10 car.

 

[racer570]

Gotcha, and completely agree on the aftermarket support. I just believe that changing rules every year can be just as destructive on car count as loosing the mfg's. What ever is decided, I would hope that the racers that have made this class into one of the largest classes is taken in account.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

I think Lecrecia did a smart thing when she changed classes. She wisely made an assessment of her racing program, and instead of whining about things, she made a move that was in the best interest of her team, and her sponsors. It's my guess that she is happy that she did.

I am happy we made the move when we did. It worked in our favor for this year anyway. If the rules change and turbos go to the Unlimited class we may move back to pro. I don't know what the future holds. I do know that the racers need to get more involved in the rules and regulation process. I think that would make for happier racers all around.

 

[ironworks]

You keep touching on "Game Changer"....what gives you the idea that a turbo is a game changer? Can-Am re-leased a Turbo and it hasnt changed any game... Honda's Gearbox is a game changer? Its still in a farm truck platform. I dont see anyone thing any manufacture doing as a game changer. All these small changes are adaptable....and as someone else already mentioned....a XP900 took a podium spot at the UTVWC....so I have yet to see anything change any game.

Dude the farmers are rollin deep on the ranch with the new "Game Changing" 6 speed gear box.

 

[acme]

IMHO....You will likely not see a UTE that is 1200cc's. The OEM's were the major push behind UTE's and the current helmet laws that have put in place. If an OEM had a 1200cc coming they would have pushed to make that law start @ 1200cc's not 1000. Personally I believe 1200cc is a pipe dream created by HYPE.

Jim:

I have been around the sport a while and prior to cars, I raced ATV's: First 3 then 4 wheel, and I was involved as an SVIA instructor when the CPSC tried to instigate regulations and an ATC/ATV ban. I was not privy to inside info but what I was read in on; I can tell you to protect their investment: The manufacturers agreed to almost anything including riding single, helmets, PSA's, they almost did voluntary buybacks as well as a myriad of other things. At that time the largest performance ATV was a 250cc 2 stroke and they also discussed displacement limits, sizes etc... At that time when 3 wheelers were under the microscope and ATV's we're almost recalled and all while agreeing to all of this: No one foresaw Yamaha releasing a 350 twin or Suzuki a 500 quad 2 years later. Changes in regulations are but a pencil swipe as they would only need to increase the number to accommodate the manufacturers. Did anyone foresee when Yamaha had the 600, a jump to 800, 900, 1000 and a turbo, considering Yamaha had the door issue and stability/rollovers were the talk of the CPSA? How about the explosion of Jeeps over the last 2 years when just a few short years ago they were the target of lawsuits and instability conversations?

I believe you are mistaken if you do not believe that their are better mousetraps coming. Just my .02...

Again as an outsider looking in... It seems strange that it so difficult to have people consider classes or rules that benefit and protect 90% of the current participants? Ideas which keep the current equipment competitive, as well as help protect the investment people have made in the sport and helping maintain the classes growth?

Lots to consider for a person looking at this class...

 

[NIKAL]

ACME what you dont know about the UTV laws is All the UTV manufactures got together back in 2011-2012 and supported a non profit Org called ROHVA (Recreational Off Highway Vehicle Association) ROHVA was started by a lawyer who was working with these manufactures. It was the manufactures that wanted UTV / Side by Side defined, and helmet laws and other restrictions put into place. So they got ROHVA to shop around and find an Assemblymen to write a bill defining a UTV and protecting the manufactures.

They found at the time Assemblymen Paul Cook who was wanting to run for Congress, and with ROHVA's pocket lining he was more then willing to put on Bill on the floor and help get it passed. What they did was Gut a tax tax bill that was on the floor that they knew would not pass (AB1595) and at the last minute re-write it and make it a UTV Safety bill. Doing this put the bill on the Assembly floor ASAP. Two big parts of this bill were to define what a UTV or Side By Side was, and part of that was to say that a UTV engine must not exceed 1000cc. If it does it would no longer fall under the UTV / Side by Side law. Another big part of this bill was the helmet part of the law. This AB1595 bill was pushed under the radar and was 100% supported and passed. Even guys like Duncan Hunter, Joel Anderson, Brian Jones who all support open land and recreational use, voted yes on the bill as they were not made aware of what changes and what the UTV bill really was.

Only after this Bill AB1595 was passed did we the off-road community hear or know about it. Some parts of the law were going to almost exclude children from riding in them as their feet could not touch the floor, it was going to illegalize all previously modified UTVs that had added back seats. Even when this was brought to Assemblyman Paul Cook who was credited for authoring the bill, he too acknowledged that he did not know anything about UTV's or the laws and rules and how it was going to effect the off-road community. He was only going off of what ROHVA gave him. He then tried to reverse the bill as the backlash from the off-road community was strong. Cook found another assemblymen Donnelly to draft up an amendment AB64 excluding a few key points to the bill. But both the engine size & helmets stayed in the bill as they knew trying to change those will kill AB64 and it would never get through the Assembly floor.

Like I said this bill was written and paid for without outside pressure by the UTV Manufactures, so why would they build a vehicle that had a engine larger then 1000cc? Doing so would classify that vehicle as something other then a UTV, and that would no longer be in the interest of the UTV manufactures.

AB1595
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_1551-1600/ab_1595_bill_20120724_chaptered.html

AB64
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_0051-0100/ab_64_bill_20130207_amended_asm_v98.html

 

[acme]

Laws are never changed or adapted and deal points never agreed to in order to alleviate the issues of the moment. From what I read this does not limit the size of a motor in the vehicle mentioned, but is simply used to define the vehicle. I am not an attorney however, I saw no language precluding a manufacturer from building something larger than 1000cc?

Regardless: You guys win! It will be interesting to watch what the future brings from the outside as until my questions can be answered and the rules seemed to protect the competitors we'll consider other options. I hope you guys figure it out for the competitors sake and that the bubble does not burst as most seem to predict. I'd put $5 on a larger than 1000CC and a gearbox in 2 years... and I agree I know nothing of the industry, but I do have a fairly good grasp of consumer marketing.

 

[Johnny]

I didnt even get to throw in my 2 cents ... but ill take another Win ..

 

[Doug8765]

Jet skis similar they eventually called the big ones boats lol. They just might call em buggys instead of a atv with sxs seating


Sent from my iPhone using My finger

 

[badassmav]

Yeah Moneybags, don't get all caught up in your pick-em-up truck thingy. You still have a championship to win in Ute's, or you ain't chit!

I didnt even get to throw in my 2 cents ... but ill take another Win ..

 

[NIKAL]

Well it sounds like Polaris 2016 "game changer" is a 925cc Turbo making 144 HP. I guess the 1200cc rumor will have to move on to Yamaha's new machine or wait until 2017.

 

[Johnny]

Im giving it all I got I would love to have a championship but we still have to cover alot of ground ... I will be Racing A Polaris RZR next year in BITD so .....
If this turbo 144 HP car is real watch out that would put UTVs way up in the starting order and im guessing a min of 5mph faster overall speeds ...

 

[badassmav]

Well it sounds like Polaris 2016 "game changer" is a 925cc Turbo making 144 HP. I guess the 1200cc rumor will have to move on to Yamaha's new machine or wait until 2017.

So, now that the cat is out of the bag, the promoters need to hold an "emergency board meeting" and address the new, and again dominant horse-powered, RZR XP turbos and the increased performance they introduce into the class. Do they immediately allow them to race? I'm not clear on the verbiage of the new turbo rules, but I expect they were tailored around what was available at the time they were implemented. Because of their allowing turbocharged cars into the 1900 class, they opened up the proverbial can of worms. After all, it is the limitations set forth in the rulebooks that dictate whether or not a given car is safe to race at achievable speeds.
Including an OEM re-worked clutch, the 144 ponies should propel the new XP Turbo to speeds well over 90 mph. Now, I'm not a driver,. but I surely would think that the larger diameter tire discussion should be in full swing. Were talking 100 mph "golf carts" unless they mandate a simple and affordablew device, similar to a restrictor plate, to limit top speed. Anyone building off of a 2 seat platform with that kind of speed and power is nuts in my opinion. I would like a 100" + wheelbase minimum if I'm going 100 mph. Put that performance under an average chassis and driver, and I can see the carnage now.
I believe Polaris addressed the inferior drive shaft configuration, and transmission output shaft area as well as the stronger clutches. But at 144 HP, the over-leveraged and under designed 3 point motor mounts, the front upper control arm with it's vulnerable tie rod "bridge", the small diameter stock cv joints (assuming these areas remained untouched), these are all areas that are possibly at the design thresh hold of surviving in a recreational environment.. Given the current restrictions on track width and tire size, these cars should be kept under 90 mph, IMO. Therein lies the problem of allowing turbos into the class. They will need to make other rule adjustments to keep the cars more stable, or slow them down, which makes absolutely no sense (other than safety concerns). It is racing after all It will be interesting to see how they address these issues without causing an UN-bridgeable gap between the factory and entry level teams. I think it is inevitable that the deterioration of the class in its current form, and it's participants, starts here unless some moderate tweaking to the rules are to be done. You gotta feel for the people who have race builds in progress at this moment.

 

[NIKAL]

Reid, you know me and I agree with what you are saying. This whole discussion goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of the season in my "The State of Desert Racing" thread. For those who rember when Score's class 7, 7s & class 8 were King with factory efforts and money behind the class, same with BITD stock truck & SUV classes. The UTV class is going down the same path! It's going to take class reps and a better group to oversee the future of this class for it to survive long term. Having one guy making rules, inspecting cars, enforcing rules, and oh yes racing in the same class with factory sponsorship is not going to help this class survive long term.

 

[the stripping shop]

Question does Polaris send stock ecu and tools to check for stock ecu in turbo Polaris to cory/utvra, or does rule get changed again? My answer is, Why slow any UTV down let the desert do it!

 

[///Airdam Clutches]

someone will have one reflashed soon, and that new engine is capable of 200 crank hp without many mods with reflashing and injector swap and boost increase. a 200hp golf cart will accelerate faster than anything else in the desert because of the power to weight ratio. a 200hp RZR will run 70mph + in 300ft. where a current RZR 1000 runs about 73mph in 1/4 mile. the acceleration will be insane. the power to weight ratio will be amazing. the top speeds are not that great though because of the gear ratio thru the clutches. you will have to have a reflash just to get the rev limit higher to get above 80mph. there is not enough gear ratio in the machine as it sits to run more than 85mph at 9000RPM. you will need a taller geared trans in order to get any substantial MPH. you will have the power to weight ratio to run over 100, but dont currently have the gearing to do so.

BUT you are still being propelled by a CVT and a belt drive system. in a machine that beats itself apart at the current 45mph average speeds a RZR is capable of. when you are able to accelerate 5 times as fast in a straight line, and maintain 10mph more top speed safely, your average mph will increase by 5mph at minimum, maybe more like 8mph average higher. but will a RZR handle those kinds of average speeds? or will they beat themselves to death and be a totaled machine after every race.

 

[ironworks]

polaris would not give BITD Cory the necessary software for a computer to plug in and check and see if a polaris ECU was reflashed when he asked for the necessary hardware/software earlier this year. can-am did give him the necessary hardware though. polaris denied.

which means i would whole heartedly expect polaris to also deny him the ability to check the new turbo models. which means, someone will have one reflashed soon, and that new engine is capable of 200 crank hp without many mods with reflashing and injector swap and boost increase. a 200hp golf cart will accelerate faster than anything else in the desert because of the power to weight ratio. a 200hp RZR will run 70mph + in 300ft. where a current RZR 1000 runs about 73mph in 1/4 mile. the acceleration will be insane. the power to weight ratio will be amazing. the top speeds are not that great though because of the gear ratio thru the clutches. you will have to have a reflash just to get the rev limit higher to get above 80mph. there is not enough gear ratio in the machine as it sits to run more than 85mph at 9000RPM. you will need a taller geared trans in order to get any substantial MPH. you will have the power to weight ratio to run over 100, but dont currently have the gearing to do so.

BUT you are still being propelled by a CVT and a belt drive system. in a machine that beats itself apart at the current 45mph average speeds a RZR is capable of. when you are able to accelerate 5 times as fast in a straight line, and maintain 10mph more top speed safely, your average mph will increase by 5mph at minimum, maybe more like 8mph average higher. but will a RZR handle those kinds of average speeds? or will they beat themselves to death and be a totaled machine after every race.

Man we haven't even seen the car yet and you know there is 60 more horsepower to be made. Come on dude.

 

[///Airdam Clutches]

come on what? i dont understand is that a question or a statement? are you asking IF i know or HOW i know?

 

[mearsman]

Some people don't know what they don't know. Let em think what they want Adam