Are UTV Racers Cheating at BITD??
- Thread starter JoeyD23
- Start date
You should re read the original post.
I am calling Cory sapington out and no other racers.
He is the Tech inspector. Right?
He has the power to enforce( or change) any rule he wants.
He posted on His Facebook page:
"What really pisses me off is racers that cheat to win, if you cheated you did not win!!!".
So I simply stated that if he as the tech inspector has the power to enforce rules then DO HIS JOB.
I am calling Cory sapington out and no other racers.
He is the Tech inspector. Right?
He has the power to enforce( or change) any rule he wants.
He posted on His Facebook page:
"What really pisses me off is racers that cheat to win, if you cheated you did not win!!!".
So I simply stated that if he as the tech inspector has the power to enforce rules then DO HIS JOB.
If you actually followed BITD and this site you would see that the drama is usually kept to a minimum. Every now and then someone pops up with a Cory needs to go thread or last year it was BadAssMav stirring it up but for the most part this group is all friends and all very friendly competitors. But like any competitive league there will be issues. You are jumping into the site in the middle of one of those random situations. It should not define the class. Discussions, disagreements, etc are all part of highly competitive motorsports.
Not that it matters to this discussion, but I can tell you HP did not win Justin Lofton the Mint 400. I know for a fact that Justin's TT by choice is running less HP then most of the other top TT's. He's still running an 8 stack, but for reasons I'm not at liberty to talk about they have chosen to de-tune their package.
Like I said before using the Protest System to police the class is the wrong way to go and will cause animosity in the class and is a no win situation. Also why should rule management be up to a competitor who has and is willing to put $500 up to enforce the rules. Read one of my other posts a few pages back about why the Protest system was created.
Stock, turbo, big bore, none of it matters. It is all in the drivers hands. How big his/her genitals are when they come up on a high speed mountain turn where the penalty for failure is critical injuries at best. Or, how long can they keep it pinned while dancing over 24" whoops with telephone poles just feet off to the side. We won the championship last season with one of the slowest, and most cvt unreliable cars out there, changing belts in a Can-am every 150 miles or so at 25 minutes plus each time. We started 13 minutes behind simms at the Mint, and until sidelined by a flat tire, passed all but a couple of cars by RM 60. S3 included. In fact, Marc made up 10 minutes on the S3 team in 60 miles, and even more on Johnny at that point. Driving. It's all in the ability to drive a race car. Fast, and consistent. There are just a hand full of drivers in this class that can win every race they entered if it were run trouble free. I put Johnny, and the S3 guys right there. Not better than my driver, of course, but capable none the less. Like I've heard said here: If someone is cheating they really suck at it, and it aint helping them get to the finish any faster. I've said it since our entering this class, and I'll boast it again here: Amongst the field we race against, Marc is the baddest driver out there. Period. Anyone who was at the hot pits in Laughlin and saw the 1905 make a hair raising pass on the outside of one of the podium finishing cars as the course dog-legged to the right as it headed back towards the infield knows they have no business going wheel to wheel with Marc in a healthy car. I watched for 3 laps at that point and not one car got within 5, maybe 10 mph of Marcs speed as he closed in, and pulled an opposite lock pass on the outside lane, with just a few feet of space left over. I personally thought he was going to roll. Hard. JX was pitted there. Bill, you certainly had to notice. It was the only time in 3 laps you could hear the crowd going crazy with cheers and oohs and ahs.
Gotta drive these thing smart too, and were still learning that, but we have learned, and I feel proven, that one can win simply on the merits of driving and reading, a worn and beaten UTE. For the record, I was verbally against allowing turbos in the class until all mfgrs. had one available. With all this whining and controversy, one has to wonder if SCORE will allow them to race next month, or this year at all. Remember, there were no turbos ready in time for San Felipe, and in its current configuration, there are no provisions for allowing turbos into the pro 1900 class. Best have a game plan ready. The Cabo-Laredo race is coming quickly.
Gotta drive these thing smart too, and were still learning that, but we have learned, and I feel proven, that one can win simply on the merits of driving and reading, a worn and beaten UTE. For the record, I was verbally against allowing turbos in the class until all mfgrs. had one available. With all this whining and controversy, one has to wonder if SCORE will allow them to race next month, or this year at all. Remember, there were no turbos ready in time for San Felipe, and in its current configuration, there are no provisions for allowing turbos into the pro 1900 class. Best have a game plan ready. The Cabo-Laredo race is coming quickly.
But its all proportional, a TT is 6,000+ lbs, has 28-35 inches of wheel travel, and turn 39 inch tires.
It was said that a Queen engine is putting around 140-150 HP to the wheels on a chassis dyno. At competitive TT is in the 750 HP range at the flywheel. And like I said some have chosen to reduce their power.
"Sportsman UTV class definition: The Sportsman class is for any UTV team that
wants to race but does not care, to race for championship points or prize money.
The Sportsman class has lower entrée fee. Any UTV vehicles that are not built to
the Pro UTV production class rules, but are classified as a UTV by a UTVRA tech
inspector will be allowed race in the Sportsman UTV class."
from what i gather is that the vast majority of the guys in this thread bickering back and forth think its unfair for the can-am turbo to race in the same class as the N/A polaris. well guys i have worked on quite a few polaris in my day, and without a doubt you can make some silly silly power in the polaris RZR engines. Queen has posted dyno charts of some of his racers engines as well as one of the big names in this thread. showing 140+whp, to which the owner has boasted to another racer on the fakebook about having so much power and downing another racer for having a few "less" hp. so we can conclude that this one particular racer, in fact has, and has boasted about having a fully built race engine, to which also carries a special engine reflash with it. sure as long as it techs out and is under the 1000cc limit, well i guess its legal. its been thru tech, and had the engine inspected as far as cory could take it. so, its making big power, and within the limits of the rule book, which may as well not even exist since so many try to bend the rules.
so lemme just clue you guys in a little on the turbo mav. i am in no way a part of can-am or polaris, i am a neutral vendor that works with every machine on the market. i dont have a preference, i have customers from all over the US bringing me machines, so i get to play with everything on the market, i have worked on just about every engine build that can possibly be done on a polaris, worked with every engine build imaginable on a can-am, and have worked on tons of these new turbo mav already, stock and reflashed. so on to the reflashed mavs. stock turbo is good to about 12psi and then it just starts blowing hot air and detonating. stock injectors are good for about 10psi of boost and then they are completely maxed out as well as the fuel pump. running 10psi and the injectors at 100% duty cycle will burn the injectors up in about 45 mins IF they last that long. so to run 10psi its pretty much a guarantee that you need a fuel system and bigger injectors. these mavs with 10-12psi make around 110whp at max. albanate has turbo impeller wheel upgrades and a fueling system with 3rd injector that will allow you to run up to 16psi and he is showing about 120-130whp. MrRPM to date has made the most power right now, with a list of upgrades and reflash and injector swap and he is making right around the 140 mark but blew up the turbo pushing that tiny turbo that hard. BUT you will easily be able to see intake and injector mods ect. regardless to all of this, what i am trying to say, JUST to make even near the kinda power that some of the polaris guys in this class are ALREADY making, you would have to upgrade the turbo and do all sorts of clearly illegal mods. you guys are worried about a car, that becomes extremely unreliable when you start pushing that tiny stock turbo hard. reflashing it and cranking up the boost you run into injector problems and you'll melt the injectors down long before you can finish a race. crank it over 10psi and you are just blowing hot air and being extremely inefficient. besides, at 10psi it still only makes 100-110whp. clearly still 30-40whp below some of the big names out there right now.
i think on page 3 or 4 i saw someone, obviously a polaris driver, make a comment and said something along the lines that a mav could not win a race without the turbo......... and i was thinking to myself......... "but did you see what Marc Burnett did last year? " he took a 2300lb maverick, with a 100% stock engine and transmission, that would not hold a belt more than 200 miles to save its life, ran 66mph top speed at best, and went out and beat just about everyone, pretty much every race he entered". dont count you chickens before they hatch. the can-am clutch system is the worst stock clutch system on the market. it has been since 2004 when TGB built that same system for BRP on the Quest. they have been pretty much been running the same clutch since then. and its pretty much been the worst stock clutch on the market since then. the center to center distance is all wrong, the belt is so short its spinning so many RPMs it wont hold together, the diameter of the clutches is all wrong, the gear ratio in the trans is wrong, so they try to make the overall gear ratio up thru the clutches, which puts the clutch in too high of a gear ratio, and has too much load on the clutch. there are careful tricks to do to the clutch to "help" make it hold a belt BUT you are working with a serious handicap. the polaris clutch is 10,000 times better stock for stock, and will hold up in a desert racing application. if you push that can-am hard, or any can-am for that matter in a desert race application, you are guaranteed to have clutch and belt failures. if you push more power down the line, you are seriously increasing your risk of belt failures to the point that you also, wont ever win a race.
its not my fight, i dont have a bike in this race, but from the outside looking in, it dont matter if you make 140whp, or 120whp, cause when you look at it, at the end of the day, Marc won the Score series with a machine that had the power to weight ratio of a 22horse craftsman lawn mower. and he was on the podium in last years mint as well. he didnt need crazy power to win, and the folks that had crazy power couldnt beat him. there is no reason to bicker about that new turbo maverick, it wouldnt matter if it had a built engine and the turbo off a toyota supra and could run 100mph. all it would mean is they would definitely be the first ones to break. it isnt like they blew the doors off everyone and lapped 2nd place, the new turbo car isnt cheating, they ran a safe and fair race and just happened to come out on the top spot of the podium. you guys should congratulate them rather than bicker and snicker and call them or anyone else cheats.
so lemme just clue you guys in a little on the turbo mav. i am in no way a part of can-am or polaris, i am a neutral vendor that works with every machine on the market. i dont have a preference, i have customers from all over the US bringing me machines, so i get to play with everything on the market, i have worked on just about every engine build that can possibly be done on a polaris, worked with every engine build imaginable on a can-am, and have worked on tons of these new turbo mav already, stock and reflashed. so on to the reflashed mavs. stock turbo is good to about 12psi and then it just starts blowing hot air and detonating. stock injectors are good for about 10psi of boost and then they are completely maxed out as well as the fuel pump. running 10psi and the injectors at 100% duty cycle will burn the injectors up in about 45 mins IF they last that long. so to run 10psi its pretty much a guarantee that you need a fuel system and bigger injectors. these mavs with 10-12psi make around 110whp at max. albanate has turbo impeller wheel upgrades and a fueling system with 3rd injector that will allow you to run up to 16psi and he is showing about 120-130whp. MrRPM to date has made the most power right now, with a list of upgrades and reflash and injector swap and he is making right around the 140 mark but blew up the turbo pushing that tiny turbo that hard. BUT you will easily be able to see intake and injector mods ect. regardless to all of this, what i am trying to say, JUST to make even near the kinda power that some of the polaris guys in this class are ALREADY making, you would have to upgrade the turbo and do all sorts of clearly illegal mods. you guys are worried about a car, that becomes extremely unreliable when you start pushing that tiny stock turbo hard. reflashing it and cranking up the boost you run into injector problems and you'll melt the injectors down long before you can finish a race. crank it over 10psi and you are just blowing hot air and being extremely inefficient. besides, at 10psi it still only makes 100-110whp. clearly still 30-40whp below some of the big names out there right now.
i think on page 3 or 4 i saw someone, obviously a polaris driver, make a comment and said something along the lines that a mav could not win a race without the turbo......... and i was thinking to myself......... "but did you see what Marc Burnett did last year? " he took a 2300lb maverick, with a 100% stock engine and transmission, that would not hold a belt more than 200 miles to save its life, ran 66mph top speed at best, and went out and beat just about everyone, pretty much every race he entered". dont count you chickens before they hatch. the can-am clutch system is the worst stock clutch system on the market. it has been since 2004 when TGB built that same system for BRP on the Quest. they have been pretty much been running the same clutch since then. and its pretty much been the worst stock clutch on the market since then. the center to center distance is all wrong, the belt is so short its spinning so many RPMs it wont hold together, the diameter of the clutches is all wrong, the gear ratio in the trans is wrong, so they try to make the overall gear ratio up thru the clutches, which puts the clutch in too high of a gear ratio, and has too much load on the clutch. there are careful tricks to do to the clutch to "help" make it hold a belt BUT you are working with a serious handicap. the polaris clutch is 10,000 times better stock for stock, and will hold up in a desert racing application. if you push that can-am hard, or any can-am for that matter in a desert race application, you are guaranteed to have clutch and belt failures. if you push more power down the line, you are seriously increasing your risk of belt failures to the point that you also, wont ever win a race.
its not my fight, i dont have a bike in this race, but from the outside looking in, it dont matter if you make 140whp, or 120whp, cause when you look at it, at the end of the day, Marc won the Score series with a machine that had the power to weight ratio of a 22horse craftsman lawn mower. and he was on the podium in last years mint as well. he didnt need crazy power to win, and the folks that had crazy power couldnt beat him. there is no reason to bicker about that new turbo maverick, it wouldnt matter if it had a built engine and the turbo off a toyota supra and could run 100mph. all it would mean is they would definitely be the first ones to break. it isnt like they blew the doors off everyone and lapped 2nd place, the new turbo car isnt cheating, they ran a safe and fair race and just happened to come out on the top spot of the podium. you guys should congratulate them rather than bicker and snicker and call them or anyone else cheats.
I was a few feet away from the MB pass at the UTVWC and it was indeed impressive. I got to admire Rieds confidence in his team. Not always justified but very loyal! LOL Always good for a smile on my face. I wanted to come down and introduce myself but wasn't really in the mood after having another bad race.
UTV-17 FUEL TANKS
Safety fuel cells are required for all vehicles. Auxiliary fuel tanks may be added in
all classes except those classes whose class rules do not allow auxiliary fuel tanks.
Auxiliary fuel tanks must be safety fuel cells. Alternative fuels (propane or natural
gas) must use an approved fuel cell as determined by DOT standards and with the
approval of Best In The Desert Racing Association
This is pretty clear ROTR.
Safety fuel cells are required for all vehicles. Auxiliary fuel tanks may be added in
all classes except those classes whose class rules do not allow auxiliary fuel tanks.
Auxiliary fuel tanks must be safety fuel cells. Alternative fuels (propane or natural
gas) must use an approved fuel cell as determined by DOT standards and with the
approval of Best In The Desert Racing Association
This is pretty clear ROTR.
and BTW, you guys should see dustin and shane run in the cross country races around here, they are fast, they are drivers, and can truly run a machine as good or better than anyone else. out of 20-30 cars that enter the cross country races here in the east coast, in a 1 hour race, i have watched Dustin lap all the way up to 5th place. He held the lap time track record at my place for almost a year, which may not mean much to you, but i have pro trophy truck drivers, pro GNCC racers run and test at my track. he isnt a redneck cajun out on a sunday drive, he is fast.
Then change the rules to allow it......it's says DQ......How fucking dumb is that? Someone needs to learn to read and write plain English or make the rule book optional.
another point to show, is the driving ability and tenacity of these S3 guys. a video posted by can-am, at the BITD / UTV world championship. any of you that ran it, know how rough the FOX proving grounds were, most teams running thru it at 30-45mph.
click the video, and fast forward to 2:15. watch them thru there, then they show the in-car right after, and were running 57mph thru there. suspension suspension suspension. allowed them to drive harder and faster than most anyone else could or would.
click the video, and fast forward to 2:15. watch them thru there, then they show the in-car right after, and were running 57mph thru there. suspension suspension suspension. allowed them to drive harder and faster than most anyone else could or would.
Pro Production UTV class vehicles with factory turbocharged engines must remain
stock as delivered from the factory. No changes or modifications are allowed, with
the exception of the air cleaner, header pipe, exhaust pipe, muffler and clutch. All
engine parts must remain stock. No aftermarket ECU’s. No aftermarket fuel
controllers. All electronic engine management parts must remain stock as delivered
from the factory.
The last sentence can go both ways if you want to read into it because a 2015 rzr 1000 can only go 72mph. How do you raise that limit? reflash the ecu is the answer.
stock as delivered from the factory. No changes or modifications are allowed, with
the exception of the air cleaner, header pipe, exhaust pipe, muffler and clutch. All
engine parts must remain stock. No aftermarket ECU’s. No aftermarket fuel
controllers. All electronic engine management parts must remain stock as delivered
from the factory.
The last sentence can go both ways if you want to read into it because a 2015 rzr 1000 can only go 72mph. How do you raise that limit? reflash the ecu is the answer.
I watched numerous cars do that in the proving grounds. Coop Dog in the 1906 blue Cognito RZR did it the best.
But yes suspension is key and that is a cool moment in the video for sure.