SxS, 4x4 and Land Use?

[Del Albright]

I appreciate what UTV Underground is doing for the side by side community. As the guy who runs the biggest land use (save trails) outfit in the country (BlueRibbon Coalition), I want to do more for UTV's and the sport in general. I am looking for input on how you see SxS and 4x4's fitting together in the same clubs and same fights for access???

thanks for any thoughts or suggestions...or just a discussion.
Del

 

[dmcmark]

Del,
Good to see that your keeping up the fight. Been a member for years, and donate when we can. UTV's are definitely becoming a force in the off road arena. Becoming more accepted in the 4x4 community with sanctioned bodies like Ultra4 bringing them into the fold. As for the same clubs, that might be a tough one but like anything else it will evolve. Have been aware of access issues for year and BRC has done excellent work. I think a common respect for all forms of off road recreation is the key, and if we can come together with common goals we can make real progress. This and many other forums will be a great place to get the word out.
Regards,

 

[GilaBrew]

Hey Del - WELCOME!

We said hello to Todd here(1 post wonder) a few weeks as he was announcing he would be in Laughlin for the UTVWC, so i was just curious of all the good & bad feedback he gave you of the experience. While the focus of that event was racing i hope everyone had an understanding that behind the racers, the fan base, the supporters, the sponsors, are enthusiasts like me that listen, talk, donate, have memberships with grassroots trails organizations and participate at as many levels as possible(local, state, regional, national).

Enough praise cannot be expressed fully of your work on the Rubicon - you da man!

In your intro in a different thread you mentioned SXS shopping so i hope you & Stacie find something you agree would suit. Have fun in your search, it should be interesting to see what you come up with. Is that Amador on a T2?

It will also be interesting to see if we can "evolve" as Mark mentioned above. Fitting together in the same clubs and access fights could very well happen right here at the utvunderground just because you said something, how's that for an idea? When you take into account the fight that BRC carries out everyday it's a little overwhelming, 4x4, single track, RTV, equestrian, rockhounds, boating, more....... All it takes is your National Newsletter, some time to attend a Forestry, BLM meeting and focus, focus, focus on keeping our access open, and our discussions like this one, open........

Best to everyone @BRC,
Have fun in Reno
Dave

 

[Todd Ockert]

GilaBrew
We are always looking for volunteers to help or join the BRC board of directors.

Our new Executive Director is going to work on getting a couple of SXS's for BRC and position them around the country for board members to utilize at events representing BRC.
It would be nice if this would happen soon, but I am sure it will take a little while to get all the right pieces in place though.

In Cal4Wheel, we have a few members that only own SXS's in the association, and we accept them with open arms to our events.
I personally don't care what you are driving while out on the trails, as long as we both are having fun!
Hope to see you out there on the trails.

Todd

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I am looking for input on how you see SxS and 4x4's fitting together in the same clubs and same fights for access???
thanks for any thoughts or suggestions...or just a discussion.
Del

They don't want us in their clubs...never have...never will.
This is the 'disconnect' that land use leadership has had with real world off-road 'community' scenarios...especially east of the Mississippi.
We tried to 'dare' speak of the same unity that you (now) allude to back before the turn of the last century.
You wouldn't have it.
Your relationship with the AMA 'trumped' everything from their shameful support of ABATE (no helmets) to the nastiness that they've always exhibited towards everybody else in the off road community starting with the atvers and right on through to the introduction of the side by side. We were willing to support BRC...yet the price of admission was to sit there and take all of the motorcyclist's crap while they purposely divided the entire community to make certain that nobody rode 'their' trails (and I mean NOBODY) while they literally lied about how they were all for multi-use systems (not to mention that there were plenty of advocates for every single new breakthrough in technology to go around).

Sorry, yet we were thrown directly under the bus too many times by national leadership (Polaris even tried to help the sxs community in Michigan once before even 'they' were nastily/angrily cast aside by the same nationally connected 'untouchables') and I'll frankly never trust those who back slap dividers. Even your phrasing of 'fitting together' proves my point:
We want a national org. which UNITES us ALL to break down barriers such as b.s. 50" trails through pure numbers vs "this is ours/this is yours" and I won't fight beside you for a multi-use pay-to-play future...because we're arrogant jerks and we encourage/promote the attitude amongst our membership.

Sorry to be so tough on your org., Del...yet there are a few of us still around who were very passionate years ago, joined just as many local/national groups as possible (no BRC for me when they refused to confront the AMA/others when dealing with the US Forest Service, DNR etc.) yet received absolutely nothing for it. We pushed for unity building the few trails that they would allow us..'they' looked to build just as many (exclusive) 'low impact' trails as was possible behind a closed door (the other side 'loves' off-roaders who build trails that nobody rides..to receive 'the credit' for building even b.s. trails).
If you guys out west want your lands to remain open...why don't you consider the picture 'as a whole' rather than believing that the entire offroad world begins and ends at the continental divide.

We'd probably respect you a little more for it and might be willing to build the UNITED off road community that many of us have often dreamed of (finally) creating.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Our new Executive Director is going to work on getting a couple of SXS's for BRC and position them around the country for board members to utilize at events representing BRC.Todd

Here's a concept...instead of riding around with a couple of guys or at the most 'a group' (of the 'converted') all day long during a limited time event...set up your booth like an evangelist at ground zero and preach concepts such as 'pay to play'..sustainable trail maintenance programs..the elimination of old school 'isolationists' within clubs..zero tolerance SAFETY issues..how to go after and defeat your local politician (no law breaking advocacy needed)..'shared sacrifice' in goal attainment throughout the community..'giving back' as the #1 goal of any club before a single wheel hits the ground every week..and too many others to list here.

If you're riding you're not organizing (at a large event)...and if you're camped out at some luxury hotel at 'convention'...you're certainly not where the unwashed' desperately needing your help are on the other side of a table under an EZ-UP.

In the 70's... if somebody had said that they were going to stage trail bikes or 3-wheelers all around the country just so that 'the elite' would have something to ride when they all showed up for a get-together?

I shudder to even think what the reaction would have been.

 

[Todd Ockert]

It'sYourLegacy
I can't talk for what happened year ago, but I can tell you that I have advocated for SXS's in my local club, and Cal4Wheel accepts them with open arms.
I can also tell you, that under my watch at BRC as the President, we will advocate for SXS's across the nation. You guys are the largest growing user group right now.
I need someone on my BOD from the SXS community badly at the moment. If you would like to come and have a seat at the table to help us better understand this fast growing user group, please contact me. We currently have two open seats on the BOD, and if someone from this group wants to help us protect the access rights for SXS's, please come sit at the table with us and discuss national land use issues.
If I come to one of your events, I will be camped next to you having a beer at the end of the day with you and the rest of the people in camp.
Having a booth at large events is what we usually do. But when everyone is out riding, we need to be also, as there is usually no one left in camp.
We have the information that you talked about in your above post.
We have brought back our magazine, and could use an article or two from the SXS community from some of the many events across the country.

Thanks

Todd

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Very refreshing Todd in terms of your offer to at the very least 'dialogue' let alone become part of the solution. There are obviously enough on this forum with the professionalism/desire and (hate to say it) 'competency' to start the ball rolling. I am always eager to discuss/do what I can; yet feel that the forum method of doing so has always been under appreciated and under utilized. Unfortunately, my method of cutting to the chase and utilizing past experiences to make that possible (with everyone encouraged to fact-check any author along the way) is not 'in vogue' at this time.
I'm also a firm believer in the concept that the more any community make these discussions public..the more that are properly educated/inspired to create a better community in the first place. We haven't seen this in a multi-use trail/land preservation effort to date and I know in my heart that stellar methods of proceeding have been (in some cases forever) lost in the process.

People instinctively want to do the right thing and create legacies that they can be proud of.

This hasn't happened community-wide in the off road sector 'yet' and it will most likely take some people stepping aside for the greater good (in the end) to make it happen. Therein lies 'the rub' as it has in most organizational structures that this country and many others have depended on for 'progress'.

 

[CSG]

SxS and 4x4 seem to fit together pretty well. The dirt bike guys have screwed me over before as well though. They can be bad as the greenys about wanting everything else off the trails. I put in the work to the point that rules actually got changed (National Forest) and then got hammered by the local dirtbike club. Now they won't even ride the trails because they became too overgrown since the wider vehicles were not allowed.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

The dirt bike guys have screwed me over before as well though. They can be bad as the greenys about wanting everything else off the trails. I put in the work to the point that rules actually got changed (National Forest) and then got hammered by the local dirtbike club. Now they won't even ride the trails because they became too overgrown since the wider vehicles were not allowed.

I've spent a lot of (wasted) time on forums relating the exact same story as you just offered while continually being ostracized even 'banned' for stating the exact same facts. I can count on one hand the times (over many years) somebody actually had the guts to speak up and simply tell the truth as to why our community has been fractured for decades and the gray haired arrogant leaders (who nobody would confront) that were 'ground zero' the cause of a major portion of it.

I don't want to open old wounds any more than you do yet if younger people don't know where we came from they will never understand where we need to go.

The fact that your single track is now rarely used due to maintenance is a huge part of the discussion we must have moving forward. I haven't been as current on issues as I would like to be yet there is one common thread which bonds older riders such as myself and older citizens in general:
Don't DARE speak of what it will actually cost to 'fix' or heaven forbid properly (sustainably) 'maintain' any riding area, trail or long broken/'broke' anything.

Offroaders might start to believe that 'pay to play' is the true salvation of their sport and their only reasonably attainable desperately needed legacy...and we sure as heck don't ever want to go down that road in our lifetimes.
We did whatever in the heck we wanted to concerning literally everything and this attitude certainly worked out for us..even if they close everything down for you tomorrow.

 

[Del Albright]

Wow, well, some serious venting and real issues here --- from the past. Guys, Todd (BRC President) and I can't fix the past and we are not about that. We are fighting for our future, all sports and all trails. The BRC of today is not what you might have experienced decades ago. Nothing is the way it was years ago -- especially for old timers like me who started in a 1952 Studebaker chopped down brush buggy. But again, BRC is about today and it's a "new" BRC from what you describe above.

The main point here is that SxS/UTV has no national group representing your issues with unity -- and BRC is poised, staged and capable of doing that. Probably a third of my four-wheeling friends have added a UTV to their inventory. I am thinking of one myself. I want to make sure you KNOW that BRC, the one I know of today, is ready to be that representation.

What say we put the old news to rest and look at the lineup today? I just don't see anyone else willing or able to step up for ATV/UTV/SxS....
Del

 

[JoeyD23]

I commend all of you for you time and thank you for using UTVUG as a resource to spread the word. I hope we can get more people involved in helping this fight!

 

[Todd Ockert]

I don't have the history that many have of the here or in other groups of the bad blood.
We need to move past that, and move into the future with goals for us all to achieve and work together to achieve those.
Del already mentioned that the SXS group here is under represented, and we at BRC want and are willing to fill that gap.
To do that though, I would really like to have someone from this group on the BRC BOD's as we need that knowledge of this user group.
I am also like Del, and have looked at getting a SXS. It just has not fit into the budget yet to make it too my garage.

Thanks

Todd

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I am willing to forget the past and move on and there are people here to help (count me in as one in terms of starting the conversation)...yet what exactly is the price of admission in today's administrative circles?
Simply 'forget' those who still run the show today and certainly what they do on a daily basis as wellI?
I took a quick look at my state off road 'politics' (today) where the motorcycle guys (largest chapter in the United States?) has snuffed out any and all reasonable multi-use conversations since even the '3-wheeler' was 1st introduced..at what at least used to be the single largest maintained trail system in the country. Now if that isn't 'ground zero' for the can't-we-all-just-get-along conversation?...I'm not exactly sure what that specific location might be.
What did I find?
The same crap that they've been pulling for decades and are obviously still pulling now despite any (I'm sorry) 'things have changed' assertions:
No public meeting minutes of the Orv advisory board since July of last year to keep anybody up to date as to what is going on in the (cough) 'community' or what mere 'peons' on 4 wheels might do to affect change (the last 'agenda' was published in October of last year and then again this April...which means absolutely nothing).
http://michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65143_65445---,00.html
A "Conservationist of the Year" award last year (by the cyclists) to the single most destructive force for (again) DECADES in destroying the ability of atvs/side by sides to gain any 'unified' ground whatsoever in the Lower Peninsula beyond riding the exact same roads that a 'car' can legally travel. The more single tracks and the more 'roads' we credit as 'trails'?...the more we keep those blasted devil 4x4 folk out of OUR National Forests.

I sincerely would like to contribute Del/Todd and still will with if it's welcomed..yet I simply don't like being asked to bend over and refuse (again) for the privilege of approaching an emperor who we all know has no clothes...nor to kiss his ring. Transparency is essentially the easiest job that nobody (still) wants to do in the 21st century.

Apparently, these younger potential off road community members are still being taught that their support is dependent on both their silence and propensity to reject such a notion. This obviously needs to be fixed first before everybody feels like they are on the same level playing field even for discussion sake.

You'll never have an informed/involved community if you can't quickly/easily educate them at the tip of their fingertips through up to date 21st century technologies. We should all certainly know that by now whether we're 'long in the tooth' concerning these issues or not.

 

[Todd Ockert]

I am willing to forget the past and move on and there are people here to help (count me in as one in terms of starting the conversation)...yet what exactly is the price of admission in today's administrative circles?

I am not sure that we totally forget the past, but leave it as a reminder of what has happened in the past and move on to new, greener pastures.

Simply 'forget' those who still run the show today and certainly what they do on a daily basis as wellI?
I took a quick look at my state off road 'politics' (today) where the motorcycle guys (largest chapter in the United States?) has snuffed out any and all reasonable multi-use conversations since even the '3-wheeler' was 1st introduced..at what at least used to be the single largest maintained trail system in the country. Now if that isn't 'ground zero' for the can't-we-all-just-get-along conversation?...I'm not exactly sure what that specific location might be.
What did I find?
The same crap that they've been pulling for decades and are obviously still pulling now despite any (I'm sorry) 'things have changed' assertions:
No public meeting minutes of the Orv advisory board since July of last year to keep anybody up to date as to what is going on in the (cough) 'community' or what mere 'peons' on 4 wheels might do to affect change (the last 'agenda' was published in October of last year and then again this April...which means absolutely nothing).
http://michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-65134_65143_65445---,00.html
A "Conservationist of the Year" award last year (by the cyclists) to the single most destructive force for (again) DECADES in destroying the ability of atvs/side by sides to gain any 'unified' ground whatsoever in the Lower Peninsula beyond riding the exact same roads that a 'car' can legally travel. The more single tracks and the more 'roads' we credit as 'trails'?...the more we keep those blasted devil 4x4 folk out of OUR National Forests.

How do we change that mentality?
We all have to be involved in larger numbers than those that want to exclude us, even if they want to recreate on the same lands.
From the link that you provided, I suspect that you are from Michigan. I know they have had issues with access, and the full size guys rule the roost there. One of the other national land use organizations when I was involved with them, had a discussion about including SXS's as members. That discussion was tabled, and I left for other reasons. It would appear then that they did nothing to support and help SXS's in their work within Michigan.
I welcome you with open arms, and am willing to help the SXS community change things. We do need help with people on the ground at the grassroots level though to let us know what help is needed, and the specific issues that are hurting the users heads.

I sincerely would like to contribute Del/Todd and still will with if it's welcomed..yet I simply don't like being asked to bend over and refuse (again) for the privilege of approaching an emperor who we all know has no clothes...nor to kiss his ring. Transparency is essentially the easiest job that nobody (still) wants to do in the 21st century.

I welcome your help and contributions how ever you think you can to BRC and the SXS community.
I would never squash your contributions to the BRC BOD, as we need everyone's input on land use decisions. One of the reasons that I have decided to come here and contribute to this forum.
I am of one person on the BRC BOD, and one that usually has no voting power as the president.
I do have a voice on the board, just like everyone else though.

Apparently, these younger potential off road community members are still being taught that their support is dependent on both their silence and propensity to reject such a notion. This obviously needs to be fixed first before everybody feels like they are on the same level playing field even for discussion sake.

They need to know that their voice is being heard, and has an effect on the decision process at all levels. That takes organizations like BRC to give feedback when they provide information and their thoughts on a specific land use fight.
I would say that is a gap that we need to fix, and fix it quickly if we want to gain these young people as members, supporters or what ever they would like to be called when they help BRC!

You'll never have an informed/involved community if you can't quickly/easily educate them at the tip of their fingertips through up to date 21st century technologies. We should all certainly know that by now whether we're 'long in the tooth' concerning these issues or not.

We need more people at the grassroots level to help us give feedback to the community via what ever means they want or need. That could include newsletters, magazines (print & digital), emails, or via social media, or even texts to their phones!

My email is [email protected] and let me know how or what you are willing to contribute. If you would like to be on the BOD, please let me know that also.

Thanks

Todd

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I suspect that you are from Michigan. I know they have had issues with access, and the full size guys rule the roost there.
I welcome your help and contributions how ever you think you can to BRC and the SXS community.
I would never squash your contributions to the BRC BOD, as we need everyone's input on land use decisions. One of the reasons that I have decided to come here and contribute to this forum.
I am of one person on the BRC BOD, and one that usually has no voting power as the president.
I do have a voice on the board, just like everyone else though.

I think that you mean 'single track' or the largest cycle district in the country per your previous point involving pure numbers needing to become involved.
God bless the single trackers as they started the system as you and most others would agree. That conversation begins and ends there if we are all expected to 'move on' from the ridiculousness of the past..together..and agree on this from the start.
Again, the pitfalls associated with the creation of any potential 21st century united road community are no different than our various social (justice) 'right(s)' problems alive and well today. There are bomb-throwers accusing others of being bomb throwers over simple truths. Most of the former have much to lose (power/often traditional 'prestige') and have frankly based their entire organizations on 'protecting' their members from what they continually need to indoctrinate them towards (at an early age)...that we all are certainly nobody that they would want their children to meet at the trailhead. I'll be real honest here. Given the terminal 'venom' that a good share of these enthusiasts have been vaccinated with since they were young? (I'll include safety, anti pay-to-play and work-the-system-screw-your-off-road-brother scenarios here as well)..I don't care to ride with them in the first place let alone waste my time arguing with them if they haven't been somehow culled from the traditional noxious herd first.
It's one thing to come to an agreement (God willing 'quickly') to agree to disagree.
It's quite another to waste time in our precious short lives playing in to the hands of those whose #1 goal is to waste it by design.

I would love to educate, be educated and to hopefully do some good for both the sport and even more importantly others outside of it by example. I just think that it is a little naieve to not list the very basics that we all will not ever argue again for the sake of refusing to be bogged down by those who have literally made a living at just that. Here's one that threatens efficient discourse probably more than any other:

#1...If you aren't continually operating in a fully transparent manner with those who grossly affect our ability to even debate the issues let alone access our lands...you are disqualified from holding that position.

I'd like to list a whole slew of other issues such as safety, the true cost of wheeling as genuine stewards of the land, outreach, etc. yet my experience is as follows:
Offroaders can't even get past the very first step in their representative philosophy:
(our 'understanding' with anybody in government at all levels):
"..You want to talk to me? Then you are required to 'insulate us' from those who would 'dare' seek to question what we are actually doing here..so that all of us may ease on in to our cushy retirements without the legitimate threat of 'mere little people' sporting pitchforks and lanterns as the result of anything we refuse to stand up against as part of our job description and your employ .."

For me, if anybody is treating 'land use rights' like: the-end-of-the-free-world-as-we-know-it-I'd-have-to-harm-you-if-I-told-you political footballs (or) 'promoting' the same (traditional) back-door hush-hush approach to those in power that has gotten us absolutely nowhere to date..I'm out before the conversation ever begins.

I'm here in Michigan at the largest maintained trail system in the country handing out "Conservationist of the Year" awards for heaven's sake.
These to the same you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours intentionally DIVISIVE types that I (for one) flat out refuse to introduce young people to as their 'heros'. I also refuse to instruct them as to the following:
"..this is how grandpa 'got things done' in this screwed up corrupt system that we never had the guts to stand up against and FIX..so..good luck with that!"

Doing things differently (for once) isn't "better"...it is the only way if we have an ounce of integrity left in any of us.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

What can BRC do?

Answer legitimate posts such as the above in terms of how things have changed vs how they've always been in solving our unity problems vs simply saying that we all need to pull together.
Is Michigan the entire country? Not by a long shot.
Do Michigan's ongoing systemic unity-related problems not only mimic others around the country but describe them pretty accurately?..I'd bet a bunch that they do.

Be honest with people and they will come.

Lay down beside dogs and promise everybody that they won't get fleas (as well)?

I believe that we all know how that ends.

 

[Todd Ockert]

What can BRC do?

Answer legitimate posts such as the above in terms of how things have changed vs how they've always been in solving our unity problems vs simply saying that we all need to pull together.

I am trying to answer these posts as best as I can. I was not involved in the decision process that reduced the trails in Michigan.
Having grown up in Traverse City, I remember thousands of miles of trails for everyone.
Now that I lead a national organization, I am not able to answer where BRC was when the trails were being closed and segregated in Michigan years ago.
I am willing to bet my BRC paycheck on it, that we were not there to protect all users interests!

I also know that the trails I like with my Jeep, are not the same ones you would like on a dirt bike. This is just plain and simple, or the SXS community may not like the same trails you or I like.
Some place in the middle is what we all need and want for our own experience though.
In the area they call the "Triangle" I have heard the trails there for at least Jeeps are just fire roads. Even I would get tired of those soon, and want more.

Is Michigan the entire country? Not by a long shot.
Do Michigan's ongoing systemic unity-related problems not only mimic others around the country but describe them pretty accurately?..I'd bet a bunch that they do.

Michigan is not the entire country, but we need to look at what happened to the trails there and know that the forest service is trying to do the same thing in other parts of the country.
For years, we have said that the west coast is what is happening first, but knowing that Michigan has lost most to all of their trails, we need to look there for the cause and effect of what can happen when things aren't followed, and back door decisions are made.
People have tried to do back door decisions here in the California system, and someone has usually spoken up about it, and then everyone been put on blast for it.
Cal4Wheel along with BRC are involved in a couple of collaborative here across the state, and a part of that system for helping to manage the forest and trails, is that all stake holders have to be engaged and at the table.
It seems to be working, as one of the last ones that worked on the Giant Sequoia monument, also ensured that trails remained for everyone. Everyone was at the table from the beginning.

What can BRC do?
Be honest with people and they will come.

I am being honest with you here and this group.
Do we win every fight?
No

Lay down beside dogs and promise everybody that they won't get fleas (as well)?

I believe that we all know how that ends.

Been there done that!

 

[CSG]

Del & Todd,
Please don't read my above post as in any way related to BRC or yourselves. It was just me sharing info. on the issues I have faced in trying to get local offroaders to work together & attempting to further this discussion. I have no issue with BRC.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I think that you've hit on the #1 reason that has been traditionally given to keep us all apart and pigeon-holed into umpteen different 'stakeholder groups' as opposed to a united off road or even 'outdoor' community:
Boredom.
I'm bored.
I expect the government to offer a different trail for whatever machine that I bring to the trailhead that day.
My single track can't simply parallel a sxs or atv trail...I'd see 'em...I don't want to see 'em...and I'd get bored.
I don't WANT to ride with the evil "....ers" ...and you can't make me.
There are enough of me (politically) in every single wheeled sport to fight umpteen different battles at the same time (AND WIN!)...so why can't I have umpteen different trails for every single one of us...and play the Forest Service AGAINST just as many other trail 'stakeholders' as I possibly can...for my own trail mileage gains?
The government has PLENTY of money (don't believe this 'debt' crap) to make certain that I don't get bored in my off road experience and 21st century impact restrictions simply make it EASIER to fund just as many trails as ALL OF US would like built.

Do I make my point?

I'm looking at hundreds of miles of trails that nobody but a motorcyclist has seen in the last 60 years...we can't get any more 'multi-use' trails built...yet I'm supposed to worry about who is 'bored'..accept that they are stabbing us in the back at every turn...and 'smile' when I sit across the aisle from them IF they convince their Forest Service bed partners to throw us a bone once every 30 years or so.

Again, we can't sit here and talk like 'men' in regards to the intricate politics keeping us apart...but we 'can' come to the table if we put a label on ourselves as "side by siders" or "atvers" as opposed to those simply demanding a totally different way of approaching a decades long failed game plan.
I'm just here to analyze the entire picture in terms of who is riding what TODAY...what dollars are even AVAILABLE to realistically ride anything tomorrow...and who exactly (names, positions, past stories of abuse concerning our off road brethren) is standing directly in our way of accomplishing what we need with what we have.

Again, the administrative system that we have today doesn't work that way.
"..Well, you can't go after 'Joe'..don't you know who he is?...I just had lunch with him last week!.."
"Yeah, he's a lily-livered coward who you can't trust any farther than you can throw him/has screwed us/you before..but 'you know'... in 30 years or so he'll retire and although he has stabbed us in the back more times than we can remember and has been an integral part of us losing our land time and again...he talks to us and we make certain that our membership doesn't know the intricacies of who is really responsible time and again for our troubles!.."

We know who the environmentalists are...yet why isn't there a mug shot room full of government types who do their bidding and are anti-multiuse? Why are 'we' anti-multiuse vs hand-holders in the cause of 'boredom'?
We change political power all the time. Bad actors can be switched out of bad career positioning IF THERE IS ENOUGH PRESSURE BROUGHT TO BEAR when administrations change.

These are the conversations that we haven't had for years and can't have today because they begin to stray towards:
Who did you have lunch this week with..why(?)... and what is he going to 'proudly' do for us that he doesn't mind shouting to the whole world about right now..any more than you?

I guess that I can't be on a BRC board as the first thing that I would do is take a camera in there; post the whole thing on YouTube and show what it takes to be a BRC board member i.e.. EDUCATE folk as to who and what we're truly up against, 'why'...and who our enemies truly are in the only venue that we have any power to shape...GOVERNMENT.

Sorry to be so long and I'm not directing any of this at you, Todd...but there has to be a wholesale shakeup of how things have been done in politics at every level in this country as we are getting our arses handed to us; there's really not much left to lose and it all has to do with using transparency to expose what is going on; get people jerked around enough to stop it and to build something completely unlike what is the traditional 'boredom'-based there's-enough-of-everything-for-everybody model that is failing again and again today.