Official UTVUnderground 2016 Parker 250 Update Thread
- Thread starter JoeyD23
- Start date
That looks like a CS for Corey Sappington. If that is what I am seeing, no offense to S3, but this would be a one sided rule. There are photos of the ECU swap on the S3 car and the lap top plugged in so settings could be changed. Now, whether stored in the Speedo or ECU if the port is also being sealed on a Polaris it adds to the suspicion of a rule written and enforced to benefit one side over another. Really glad we didn't make the jump this year.
Got it thanks Staggs!
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I tried to get a photo of that payoff in Henderson when 1999 was at Tech. I know money changed hands but I can't provide evidence Joey D made the exchange or someone else on the team. I think it was pretty cheap... like $30.
Joey the way that I understand it is that, the Can Am guys are accessing their speedo in their dash to alter the tire size. By telling the computer that they are running a 26" tire it allows the speedometer to read a speed that is significantly lower than what the GPS reads. The Polaris is "allowed" to do this as well, but we are not allowed to do it through the ecu or any other type of plug in device. Also by unplugging our speed sensor the Polaris instantly goes into limp mode so that is not an option for us.
This port was sealed up on my car along with the computer by Corey Sappington (CS) the day after i got it.
Im surprised nobody has come out with something that goes inline to fool the computer. They have been doing it for a long time in the automotive industry for a long time.
I know Casey well enough that he won't deal with anyone's crap, but Casey also knows who pays the bills and where the money in his bank account comes from. The racer and the sponsors! If 1 or even 5 racers tell him they are sitting out, Casey will say "That's fine". But if 50+ racers stay home and if Casey gets a call from Polaris who is a BITD series sponsor wanting to know what's going on, Casey's going to take that call and he will do what he needs to, to not lose a big chunk of his income.
Casey took care of Ford and still does. I believe it was the first year of his General Tire deal and there was a bit of controversy in regards to a penalty Steve Strobles BFG TT was given, handing the Championship to a General Tire racer. If Casey thinks he's going to lose one of his biggest classes and upset a sponsor he will do something.
If the group as a whole does not stand up and do something then these issues will continue. But what do I know?
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Dunno if you guys remember it. But after S3 won the mint there was an almost identical thread to this. Chester ecu. Illegal reflashes. Cheating of some sort. There was a thread just like this that got 20,000 views and 15 pages long.
This is happening again after they won this race as well.
Maybe it's just a lot of butt hurt. I can't see why you guys can't read between the lines. By telling the ecu that you're running 25" tires when you're actually on 30s doesn't trick the ecu into giving more power. It corrects the speed on the dash. That's it. It's a speedometer re calibration tool. Similar to when you have a GM and are running 35" tires you buy the hand held programmer and you can change the calibrations to the speed-o. They can't unlock ecu parameters to gain more power with buds software. Buds is a diagnostic tool. And fix it tool. It won't write code. There is only one person in the US that can plug into a can am ecu and actually change the parameters and he is THE head of the race program. His special lap top is the only one there is that will re-write the ecu code on the spot. If you see a taller Canadian guy wearing all black hooking up his lap top to one of the can am cars before a race then you got something to worry about. Otherwise you have to send an ecu off to have it reflashed from an aftermarket company. The thing is, with Cory having BUDS he can plug up thru the diagnostic port and see if the ecu is reflashed. I can't say because I wasn't at tech but Cory supposedly checked the can am cars. With buds you can tell if it's reflashed. But you can't unflash it or change it. Buds can't write code or flash an ecu. It can read the ecu and show diagnostics. Thats about it.
Cory really needs to open his eyes. The pix of brandens diagnostic port sealed up as well as the ecu is the only way he can accurately stop anything from happening to the cars. The diagnostic port is all they need to be reflashed. I have see one get un-flashed in a parking lot because it WAS flashed with nothing but a cell phone and a small plug that goes to the diagnostic port under the dash. Thinking he can take the ecu and put tape around it to keep someone from opening it up is stupid. These tuners now can do it on cell phones. Without ever cutting the car off or touching the ecu. Plug in under the dash and in 30 seconds it can be flashed or Unflashed.
I heard Cory say was taking all the ecus to his local dealer to have them flash them with the stock XPturbo flash. They would all be the 100% stock flash then sealed and reinstalled on the car. So all the ecus when they get back from him should be the same.
But how are the Polaris teams allowed to trick the speed limiter in the ecu as Johnny says, if the ecu is sealed and the diagnostic port is sealed? Seems they are jailed to the 75mph limiter as queen says.
This is happening again after they won this race as well.
Maybe it's just a lot of butt hurt. I can't see why you guys can't read between the lines. By telling the ecu that you're running 25" tires when you're actually on 30s doesn't trick the ecu into giving more power. It corrects the speed on the dash. That's it. It's a speedometer re calibration tool. Similar to when you have a GM and are running 35" tires you buy the hand held programmer and you can change the calibrations to the speed-o. They can't unlock ecu parameters to gain more power with buds software. Buds is a diagnostic tool. And fix it tool. It won't write code. There is only one person in the US that can plug into a can am ecu and actually change the parameters and he is THE head of the race program. His special lap top is the only one there is that will re-write the ecu code on the spot. If you see a taller Canadian guy wearing all black hooking up his lap top to one of the can am cars before a race then you got something to worry about. Otherwise you have to send an ecu off to have it reflashed from an aftermarket company. The thing is, with Cory having BUDS he can plug up thru the diagnostic port and see if the ecu is reflashed. I can't say because I wasn't at tech but Cory supposedly checked the can am cars. With buds you can tell if it's reflashed. But you can't unflash it or change it. Buds can't write code or flash an ecu. It can read the ecu and show diagnostics. Thats about it.
Cory really needs to open his eyes. The pix of brandens diagnostic port sealed up as well as the ecu is the only way he can accurately stop anything from happening to the cars. The diagnostic port is all they need to be reflashed. I have see one get un-flashed in a parking lot because it WAS flashed with nothing but a cell phone and a small plug that goes to the diagnostic port under the dash. Thinking he can take the ecu and put tape around it to keep someone from opening it up is stupid. These tuners now can do it on cell phones. Without ever cutting the car off or touching the ecu. Plug in under the dash and in 30 seconds it can be flashed or Unflashed.
I heard Cory say was taking all the ecus to his local dealer to have them flash them with the stock XPturbo flash. They would all be the 100% stock flash then sealed and reinstalled on the car. So all the ecus when they get back from him should be the same.
But how are the Polaris teams allowed to trick the speed limiter in the ecu as Johnny says, if the ecu is sealed and the diagnostic port is sealed? Seems they are jailed to the 75mph limiter as queen says.
I normally don't jump in these forums anymore as words will be twisted spun and dissected more than needed. I dont fully understand how this situation is still being brought up. People wanted split classes and it happened. And now there are still problems.
Re Can Am ecu I know that Cory has provided ECU for all Can Am teams that he purchased just like Polaris ECU. Since last season we have had to put in this ECU that he seals. We could not provide our own. BUDS is a tool that every dealer has just like every Polaris dealer has their version to program stock ecu. BUDS does not give any performance enhancement at all. It only programs keys, mates the ECU, power steering and digital dash. Cory from what I understand changed S3 Ecu and filmed it prior to the race randomly. I was told our ECU or others can be changed at any time to ensure teams are playing fair. I feel that he is harder on the Can Am teams as a result to show everyone that he is not being biased. I dont have a problem with this as we will play by the rules.
Regarding top speed etc, I know at the 250 we started with Angle and he got the hole shot-barely... and we ran with him very close wide open at virtually the same speed. I assure you my foot was through the floor. There was 0 advantage either way. IF anything Johnny may have had a 1/2 mph gain. How is that possible?? These cars are closer in speed and performance than ever before. Also we were running with Sims and Schueler for nearly 3/4 first lap all as close as can be. If anything the Polaris had a tiny speed advantage due to clutch shift out. This course was fast and each car was virtually the same speed we were running with up front. I do not understand how anyone thinks that there is any advantage or not between the Turbo cars. For the first time the Turbo cars from each MFG are almost equal in speed and power. I dont see how this is a problem. This class winners will be about drivers, prep and reliability-- not $ or more HP. This is a good thing. It creates a level playing field and from my perspective is pretty dam fair. It should bring more teams to the track. SO lets not scare people away by over dramatizing this class.
If anyone wants to spend some time and take their stock PoPo Turbo race car against ours and film it at top speed, acceleration, play with what BUDS does, we are an open book. We will show you. We can adjust the tire size and you can see first hand what happens. There are no secrets or advantages. Lets get this cleared up so that everyone realizes that the winners of this class are just driving and keeping the car together. Joey you up for filming and putting a comparison video together????? Maybe we can put this to rest!
I assure you if there happens to be a PoPo sweep in the Turbo class we as a Can Am team will be the first to congratulate them for a job well done!
I have not seen one post of anyone just congratulating S3 for their win (and they were running 23hp less than all the competition stock cars on the track). They earned it just like Cognito earned the overall!
For the record we have no problem with ECUs being fully unlocked if that is what the class wants as a whole. LETS meet up in person at the world championships and put a plan together that is whats in the best interest of the class. A lot of the "whining on the forums" hurts the image of this class now more than the current rules.
Re Can Am ecu I know that Cory has provided ECU for all Can Am teams that he purchased just like Polaris ECU. Since last season we have had to put in this ECU that he seals. We could not provide our own. BUDS is a tool that every dealer has just like every Polaris dealer has their version to program stock ecu. BUDS does not give any performance enhancement at all. It only programs keys, mates the ECU, power steering and digital dash. Cory from what I understand changed S3 Ecu and filmed it prior to the race randomly. I was told our ECU or others can be changed at any time to ensure teams are playing fair. I feel that he is harder on the Can Am teams as a result to show everyone that he is not being biased. I dont have a problem with this as we will play by the rules.
Regarding top speed etc, I know at the 250 we started with Angle and he got the hole shot-barely... and we ran with him very close wide open at virtually the same speed. I assure you my foot was through the floor. There was 0 advantage either way. IF anything Johnny may have had a 1/2 mph gain. How is that possible?? These cars are closer in speed and performance than ever before. Also we were running with Sims and Schueler for nearly 3/4 first lap all as close as can be. If anything the Polaris had a tiny speed advantage due to clutch shift out. This course was fast and each car was virtually the same speed we were running with up front. I do not understand how anyone thinks that there is any advantage or not between the Turbo cars. For the first time the Turbo cars from each MFG are almost equal in speed and power. I dont see how this is a problem. This class winners will be about drivers, prep and reliability-- not $ or more HP. This is a good thing. It creates a level playing field and from my perspective is pretty dam fair. It should bring more teams to the track. SO lets not scare people away by over dramatizing this class.
If anyone wants to spend some time and take their stock PoPo Turbo race car against ours and film it at top speed, acceleration, play with what BUDS does, we are an open book. We will show you. We can adjust the tire size and you can see first hand what happens. There are no secrets or advantages. Lets get this cleared up so that everyone realizes that the winners of this class are just driving and keeping the car together. Joey you up for filming and putting a comparison video together????? Maybe we can put this to rest!
I assure you if there happens to be a PoPo sweep in the Turbo class we as a Can Am team will be the first to congratulate them for a job well done!
I have not seen one post of anyone just congratulating S3 for their win (and they were running 23hp less than all the competition stock cars on the track). They earned it just like Cognito earned the overall!
For the record we have no problem with ECUs being fully unlocked if that is what the class wants as a whole. LETS meet up in person at the world championships and put a plan together that is whats in the best interest of the class. A lot of the "whining on the forums" hurts the image of this class now more than the current rules.
Thank you Derek for being the voice of reason and here and actually coming up with a solution.
I would challenge any race team to (re)read even this thread alone with all the critical information disclosed and ask themselves the following:
Do I really believe that my team will be given more of an opportunity behind closed doors to effectively explain our point of view concerning ever changing events better than what has been offered to date up here on this forum?
If you're nothing but a "whiner" up here..what makes any team believe that they will suddenly become the most respected men or women in the room given a strictly limited time frame with testosterone, intimidation and emotional levels never higher?
Take it from experience..when anybody (including your local politician) is insisting that everything will be solved in your favor if the door is simply closed and you allow them to control the entire conversation (in private) with no record whatsoever of what was offered or promised?
You are obviously screwed before the meeting ever begins.
The powers that be have allowed this class to spin out of control for years now...so what is the soluton?...point to freedom of speech or any ideas expressed here to (finally) fix this mess as the actual culprit...NOT the incompetent administration of the series or those connected with it at the factory level.
And this historic meeting will be led/recorded by 'who' not connected with 'either'...last how long and be live-streamed with two-way interaction for all concerned/unable to attend..how?
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Here is what I saw.
Cognito said they would overall. They had a perfect day.
Everyone else had some sort of issue. Belts, flats, broken wheels, crashing into other vehicles and complete failure.
When S3 pulled onto the podium and George told them they were first...... Dustin was shocked, they had problems early on. The point I am trying to make is until we see someone running away with it "Cognito" style, it's just racing. If you want to win race harder, pit faster, practice belt changes, practice tire changes. I can assure you TT, Class and teams like that are doing this.
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Cognito said they would overall. They had a perfect day.
Everyone else had some sort of issue. Belts, flats, broken wheels, crashing into other vehicles and complete failure.
When S3 pulled onto the podium and George told them they were first...... Dustin was shocked, they had problems early on. The point I am trying to make is until we see someone running away with it "Cognito" style, it's just racing. If you want to win race harder, pit faster, practice belt changes, practice tire changes. I can assure you TT, Class and teams like that are doing this.
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Waiting on S3 story still/ all can am stories to congrat them. Why didn't UTVRA just say all stock ECM/ECU no changes period. If you cant plug into one and change but other you can there is the problem. Trust me Iam all for can am winning But you cant make a rule and only benefit 1 manufacture. Even looks worse when all can am drove onto trailers and get to plug into buds when get home. Then all Polaris have to wait up to 2-3 weeks to get there ECU to see what was wrong with utv plus it erased all codes so now you have to put more time on utv before tear down just saying looks pretty bias.
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How do you plug in digital wrench then.
Got it thanks Staggs!
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Also I feel that none of the Can Am's are or have cheated in any way. I talk to S3 on a regular bases as well as well as Murray and Corey. I congratulate all of them for their performance at Parker. All I was getting at is I don't believe even the Polaris's are being "policed" evenly. Do all the Polaris turbos have their data port sealed up?
My question was in regards to the tire size change and how that affects performance. To me it was now perfectly clear. It does not increase performance it only calibrates the speedo. Therefore I see nothing wrong with it. I just never understood the whole scenario which is why I was asking and I know a lot of other people were texting and messaging me asking WTF. Until things like this are explained through UTVRA more publicly which I want to help Cory with, expect more "whiny" posts from people questioning things that either they don't understand are are made aware of through word of mouth.
I would love to film a comparison if someone is paying for it lol otherwise I'm sure this is something someone could do with an iPhone. But I really don't think it's all that necessary.
This forum is the only place we have to discuss stuff. Sure sometimes it gets out of hand but this forum has helped make a lot of changes within our sport. This forum has inspired way more people to build and race then it has discouraged. There is drama within all forms of racing. Banter only means people actually give a shit. This forum is a place to share, complain, praise, and promote everything surrounding this hobby.
I would love to film a comparison if someone is paying for it lol otherwise I'm sure this is something someone could do with an iPhone. But I really don't think it's all that necessary.
This forum is the only place we have to discuss stuff. Sure sometimes it gets out of hand but this forum has helped make a lot of changes within our sport. This forum has inspired way more people to build and race then it has discouraged. There is drama within all forms of racing. Banter only means people actually give a shit. This forum is a place to share, complain, praise, and promote everything surrounding this hobby.
There the problem all is not done on a level playing field across the board. Until it is, it will always be a cluster fuck.