New Honda Talon to launch Nov 27th 2018!

Discussion in 'General UTV Discussion' started by Mad Media, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Isn't it lovely how a basic discussion over the merits of one style machine over another...turns in to an attack? Who ever said that they love one machine while "hating" every other?
    While realizing that there s a lot at stake here for those (presently) making a living around the CVT design...when did we ever previously witness contrary messengers being purposely persecuted over "sentence structuring" when presented facts were indisputable?

    "Turn it up real loud Hank when they hit that primary real hard/cuss like a sailor when it doesn't move and that part files across the room..." ;) (disclaimer: I have not witnessed a video to date with this particular content yet they most likely are not hard to find).

    (to be continued...)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  2. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    In response to AirDam's insistence and our first hand experience that CVT system parts today are largely unacceptable in terms of initial OEM quality:
    Wouldn't the average enthusiast instead desire or take their chances on a name like Honda to get things right (finally) in a much more maintenance friendly package with paddle AND automatic shifting to boot?

    If I'm buying the same junk to put in either style transmission (which is largely true nowadays) who am I trusting 'more' to quickly fix what has been brought to light?

    I'll go even further out on a limb to proclaim that I will be one heck of a lot less disappointed if my tranny grenades after doing all that I could for it 'maintenance-wise'...versus baby-sitting my CVT approaching OCD madness, special tools required as well as parts (see 'improved' aftermarket clutch rollers) or constant micro surface "evaluations" for wear signs.

    I'll sit here/drink my after-ride-beer while you blow out your belt housing and break out the High CRI light/magnifying glass to check for 'whatever'. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  3. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    There were a good share of Honda Rincon owners back in the day who were in the same boat. Groundbreaking machine which the manufacturer never gave up on while improving it to not-the-fastest-in-the-world-but-reliabe perfection. I look at what Yamaha has done with the YXZ since its introduction and am just as impressed as I was with the Rincon after the same amount of time. Are there going to be disappointed Talon beta testers as well? You bet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  4. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    (Airdam)"...blow a belt, 15-20 min change..... burn a clutch up, take it to the dealer and let them spend 12 hours to disassemble virtually the entire machine to fix it. durrrhhhhh.... no brainer on which one is the better way to go..."

    Not sure that you're 'getting it' here: I don't want to spend 15-20 minutes struggling with anything (period). I don't want to spend even more time picking pieces of shredded rubber out from around hot metal parts/crevices either whether it be on the trail or at home. I'll take my chances on solid gearing easily maintained just like I did with a 20K+ glorified golf cart in the first place.

    (Airdam)"..the pioneer trans was revolutionary to some, many are awe-struck by it and its ability on paper. but i have not had one single person in person tell me they were as pleased with it after actually driving it. i would venture to say around 30% were pleased or impressed and more like 70% were displeased or let down. i have a local dealership that has a few of them in house with burnt up transmissions. duck hunters put 28-29" tires on them and park them in a mud hole, hunt a few hours, then come back to them and start them up and try to take off and it burns the clutch or trans or whatever is going on inside there..."

    Soooo...no one liked the unique paddle/auto shift that the groundbreaking Pioneer unleashed as it was never actually dependable or even worked.....soooo.....Honda decided to design their entire groundbreaking sport UTV program around this exact same drivetrain.

    You're right. We should all go back to 'beepers' as these darn smart phones are just so much more expensive!

     
  5. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    (Airdam)"..OEMs use the belt drive because its cheap. you would be surprised at how cheap. the machine you chose to purchase has the highest part failure rate of any machine on the market. there are lots of parts on them that are junk, most everything is poorly and cheaply made, most every single part from the bearings to the wiring in ecu is done as cheaply as possible to maximize profits. that is how they have become the biggest. because of their constant push to build them cheaper, they have been able to maximize profits, and turn those profits into R&D on the next best project and are able to fast track stuff out and get customers something new every 6 months. are the machines well thought out, meh.... are they built tough to last, not at all.... they are built to have fun on and with that fun unfortunately comes a cost of repairs and rebuilds and maintenance. i absolutely hate how cheaply some have become on their parts. but it sells parts and new machines. its a game they have played and figured out.

    building parts that wear out in 500-1000 miles does two-fold. (1) for customers with expendable income, they just wear this one out and go buy a new one. $$$ money in OEMs pocket. (2) jimmy joe blow that doesnt have deep pockets has to start saving up for a new part once his wore out. he pu:rchases the new part for $609, OEM sells it to a dealer for $300, OEM only has $30 in said part. OEM profits $270, dealer profits $300 $$$$ more money in everybodys pocket. they have played the game long enough, they have tested parts over and over and figured out what it takes to make it last, then what it takes to make it cheaper, and then figured out the balance of how cheap can we make it, and still make it last a little while, but still wear out in an understandable amount of time so that it forces the customer to become a continual cash cow one way or another. they have built them to wear out. honda is no different. their ATV lines used to last 15+ years before a single thing would wear out. now they have cheap valve stem seals that start leaking over time, plastic camshafts in their generators that wear out in less than 1000 hours. they along with everyone are trying to figure out how to keep people on the books for life by building things that wear out so you will replace it or buy a new one. the talon is a new machine, i hope you buy one and love it so you can get off the hate bandwagon for every other machine. and i would really really like it if you stopped putting words in the middle of sentences in parenthesis or in quotations. just type a sentence with less emphasis nobody cares for the rants.

    before you try to second guess me on the cost of parts, i am speaking from experience, i work with many of the parts manufacturers that the OEMs use, i have some of these companies build me parts, and in cross the table conversations ive asked "whats this part cost" simply to have numbers in my head. parts the OEMs pay $30 for, will retail at dealers for $600+. this is facts. this is how they make money. and they are constantly looking for ways to make those parts cheaper. some of these OEMs strong arm the manufacturer every year or two and threaten to take their business elsewhere if the manufacturer won't produce the parts for cheaper. dont hate the player, hate the game!..."

    A good share of us have long recognized this rush to functional obsolescence yet thanks for confirming.
    What direct drive does (for me) is put all of my potential problems in a nice tidy little box running in a lubricated bath. As we determine what the weak parts in that box become (if any for the average enthusiast given Honda's reputation for 'better than average' quality) 'fixes' will not be subject to environmental factors beyond heat and cold not dust and inevitable non-lubricated abrasion when fluids are changed.
    I like that.
    When the day comes (and it will) that a YouTube video surfaces of how Talon trannies can be modified by heat treating/mirror polishing this little part or that as racers do today with everything else?
    The Talon (and YXZ for that matter) will be even better with none of the drivetrain maintenance hassles which 'belts' will always be plagued with.

    Keep on mind that a good share of the power transferred world ran on 'belts' not that long ago.
    We're moving beyond this and for good reason concerning machines hauling us a hundred miles or more from our homes and trailers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  6. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    I wonder how much reverse gear (especially) or back and forth shifting abuse my XP will tolerate while trying to break suction in mud with oversized tires (or not). Banging gears forward and back while on the throttle will have the same result with a DCT.
    These things get jacked all around in bad positions or worse yet stuck with most owners knowing absolutely nothing in terms of the limitations of their drivetrains or how to necessarily baby them along.

    I don't even like reverse given all the horror stories to date yet a gear drive and some common sense might turn that around (finally).
     
  7. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    ...is any current silence concerning 'reverse' somehow connected with the fact that certain cars don't even offer a gear driven reverse (labor and/or wallet intensive aftermarket upgrades available only to simply 'bigger chains')...unless one ponies up thousands of dollars more for a turbo motor....or one spend 30K+ for similar "latest and the greatest" CVT driven models???

    Two naturally aspirated cars (one CVT/one gear driven) stuck side by side in reverse (only) trying to back out of a bad situation.

    Which one would you choose given a 20K or so budget?
     
  8. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    If you don’t slam the throttle to the floor in reverse in the mud, no worries about breaking the reverse chain on the XP.

    The turbo XP and RS1 have a gear driven reverse. Wildcat XX and Can Am are gear driven.






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  9. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    I agree that the more expensive Polaris versions are gear driven in reverse along with the equally expensive Wildcat XX...yet I did not know that 'all' of the lesser expensive CanAm CVT drives were gear driven as well (ie. those lesser HP models about to compete with the Talon).
    "...just don't ever get on the throttle while you're solidly in reverse at an (undetermined) foot pressure pace not to exceed an (undetermined) rpm..." always seemed about as realistic as tearing the whole tranny apart to put on a bigger aftermarket chain. Especially so when 'geared' reverse CVT systems were being slapped on everything else 'hot' at the same time.

    Sounds as if "Can Am" is the only one building 'geared' reverse CVT systems for the unwashed masses with only 20K in their pockets, correct? At least we all know that when our 'more than sufficient' CVT driven reverse chains grenade in the mud or elsewhere...it will be because we din't have the cash up front...shoulda went with a CanAm(?), Yamaha or Honda..'or' ...that we were just plain bad at getting unstuck (which some admittedly are).
    Thank heaven that somebody is indeed up there looking out for the little guy simply stuck in the mud. ;)

     
  10. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    With around a 20K budget, I would buy it the car that fits my needs and for the areas I like to ride.

    I know you love the Talon, but if you look at the Wildcat XX you will see that for a sport SXS it is probably the most thought out and well designed UTV on the market.
     
  11. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    Those same mud guys also take out truck transmissions with the constant massing the throttle and throwing it in reverse and forward and reverse.

    The only ones that seem to break the most stuff are the mud guys. Polaris has a mud model which I believe also has a gear driven reverse.

    Can Am has never used a reverse gear chain going back to the Commander. The Wildcat XX is in the 20K market segment and in direct competition with the Talon 1000R.
     
  12. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Strong opinions are what we need in comparing the Talon to anything else with these cars beginning to differentiate themselves. Not necessarily in 'love' with the Talon yet if the XX is it's #1 competitor then members need to actually start citing those design comparisons.
    I very simply do not believe that an automatic/fun shifting UTV is not possible and that the days of CVT maintenance are not indeed over.
    Heck, Honda put gear driven paddle shifters in to the least expensive cars that they were producing for years and still are as far as I know (Fit).

    https://utvactionmag.com/2018-utv-action-magazine-new-utv-of-the-year/
     
  13. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    Have you looked closely at all the offerings that are currently available in the sport SXS segement? Each manufacture has stepped up in improving the overall product.
     
  14. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    I have and was simply throwing any XX disciples their fabled "UTV of the Year" bone for 2018 (according to utv'action'magazine)...as 2019 and beyond are going to be tough years for those who have never possessed the engineering capabilities required to compete with those who do in the 21st century (ie. build geared transmissions themselves, let alone 'x', 'y' or 'z' feature sets).

    Somebody else put it this way:
    "..We take a look at the 68.4-inch-wide Honda Talon and realize we are seeing history being made...."

    Game changer. ;)

    "Whether it’s called the Talon, Odyssey, Pilot or Ridgeline, the new high performance UTV from Honda is the most anticipated SXS in years. We have an idea of what is taking so long. Honda has been developing some ground breaking machines lately in all arenas from Adventure Motorcycles and the Africa Twin to compact sports cars and the Civic Type R. We believe some of the technologies in them will make it to the soon to be announced 2018 high performance Honda SXS or single seater. Its been over a year since we first speculated on what Honda has in the works..."

    [​IMG]
    V-TEC is actually a system to optimize fuel consumption through variable valve timing. On the other hand, it produces a lot of power when needed and is in a small lightweight package perfect for Honda's next generation of sport UTVs

    POWERPLANT
    It’s about time that V-TEC (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control) technology makes its way into the powersports world and inside a new UTV would be a perfect fit. For average trail riders, V-TEC can offer great fuel economy and there is a lot of power potential for a performance guy . You see, Honda just announced the the V-TEC technology will return in a brand new Type R Civic. That turbo charged, 4-cylinder, 2000cc mill will be pumping out 306hp at only 6500 rpms. In 2016, Honda’s GRC (Global Rally Cross) Civic race cars were pumping out close to 600 horsepower at redline. So, if you cut that platform in half to stay within the 1000cc limit, stock horsepower in a new Honda UTV would be competitive and could in fact be doubled over what is currently offered- all without a CVT belt.
    [​IMG]
    The GRC Civic team uses a Honda turbocharged powerplant producing over 600HP.
    [​IMG]
    Hopefully you will see Honda's new sport UTV come with different transmission options from full manual to paddle shift and full auto. That's how the new 1000cc twin-cylinder Africa Twin is offered.
    TRANSMISSION
    V-TEC along with Honda DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) would make a good combination. In other Honda vehicles such as the Africa Twin, the NM4 cruiser, Rancher ATV and Pioneer SXS lines, DCT gives riders lots of options for shifting from full manual, paddle shifting and totally automatic. If you don’t think Honda can make a paddle shifter that is as good as a manual shift, ask any Formula One driver which is better. In fact, go drive a Yamaha YXZ1000R SS and see how good the technology already is in a UTV.
    [​IMG]
    Drivers can choose from sport comfort and race mode in the Civic. Expect the UTV to have similar features.
    SUSPENSION
    Honda has been developing its own adaptive Suspension Technology and Vehicle Stability Assist and has deployed it in a number of machines. We also hear Honda is working with Fox as an OEM supplier, so shock options are pretty endless.
    [​IMG]
    This year's Pioneer 1000 SE is the first production Honda to use Fox suspension. You can bet their R&D relationship has been going on for years.
    CARGO
    Taking a cue from the Ridgeline pick up, Honda may offer very user friendly storage ideas such as an in-bed cooler or storage box depending on engine placement. It would be strange, but not out of the question, to see a front engine UTV that would allow for more cargo.
    [​IMG]
    Now that UTVs are basically sitting at the 80MPH mark on the top end, we think it's time manufacturers spend more time on reliability and creature comforts instead of horsepower. Honda is no doubt working on both.
    RELIABILITY
    Honda has always been known for great reliability. Some of todays UTVs are far from reliable. You can bet Honda will be more focused on introducing a reliable, trouble-free UTV than they are about winning any horsepower wars. The good news is Honda is very capable of doing both.


    [​IMG]
    Honda is using race circuits like Baja and GRC to test and develop new components that will trickle down into production UTVs. This Vendetta Motorsports Honda Ridgeline finished the Baja 1000 in its maiden race.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  15. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    Every new release of a sport SXS is a game changer depending on which magazine or online news source does the review. Other than the DCT set up I don't see anything new and exciting with the Talon.

    Was the turbo S not touted as a game changer with the electronic controlled suspension? I thought the magazines said the Can Am X3 was a game changer with its suspension and motor. Yamaha YXZ was the game changer too per the articles. Heck even the Honda Pioneer was a game changer.

    You keep hinting it is a game changer before it has even hit the showroom floor. Yet have nothing other than a DCT to point to as changing the game. Tell me what else is so different and special about the Talon.


    Game changer is a buzz word that sales and advertising like to use.
     
  16. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Honda's entry in to the sport market changes the game (period).
    It is laughable that anyone must argue this point let alone 'the phrase' or their long history of initially conservative groundbreaking market entries in to ANY market. Throw in their functionally exclusive, giggle producing, reliable, maintenance free DCT transmission for emphasis? It is no surprise at all to hear the age old crys of:
    "....bbbbbbbut...what else can it do?,,,who is Honda (historically) anyways?.....why should I care that they have vastly superior economies of scale, engineering and 'big boy' experience off road?...who wants a (solid) miniature trophy truck anyways?..".

    Honda is able to change the game by merely and very purposely giving the media but a 'taste' of our offroad future months away because (again) they are Honda and not (me too!) belt shredders.

    The YXZ sold in the sand and the woods because frankly it was more fun to drive than anything else out there and still is today.

    The Talon takes the above thirst for that same indescribable gear banging very vocal feeling to another level (at will) entirely.
    Honda and Yamaha did not mimic the baddest machines on the planet and how they put power to the ground to 'scare' belt aficionados.

    They are reshaping the sport to effectively relegate belt-piece-pickers to the trash heap of history or the exact same (me too!) markets which produced the first knock-off Rhino.

    Sorry, but a good share of us with comparative capacities are moving on. The good news? We will gladly take a refreshment break as any fellow riding party member gets their act back together while gingerly handling smoking hot rubber pieces stuck in even hotter crevices...'but'...they had better be hurriedly scrambling around/cussing like a NASAR pit crew member for our further entertainment.

    We've all got places to go today. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  17. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    You my friend are putting a lot of eggs in Honda’s basket. Maybe the the trail version Honda will be the big seller. I can tell you the open desert and sand crowd are mostly not interested in a 104hp car.

    Maintenance free DCT we shall see.

    It’s people with your thought process of Honda is making an indestructible set up which will prove that it will be far from it.

    Let’s revisit this game changer as you touted it to be after a year of it being out.






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  18. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Honda and any other actual automobile manufacturer with far superior across-the-board too-numerous-to-mention-here capabilities don't bother with eggs or baskets. They supply the chicks, feed and processing facilities which ultimately dominate 'homegrown' farmer's markets for comparison. I didn't make the rules and only flow with what the latest and greatest actually is.


    The only desert and sand "crowd" shying away from 104 dependable horses are those dragging more behind them than the car is worth let alone the truck doing the hauling. What constantly amazes me is this concept of HP equalling 'everything' in an open /high maintenance drives operated in even inhospitable environments. It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall as a Dad or Mom is explaining to the kids why "104 HP is nothing and only for sissies" as they make one purchase over the other. What was my very first Rhino on the market pushing...26?

    Honda had troubles with grounding, folks not changing the oil or checking it and (with this younger generation mostly having zero experience off road) ignorant gear grinders. Expect the same problems and more with owners cheered up here on the net for decades stripping off their large tires/other mods before taking "crap" in for (cough) "warranty" as their kids ride along for the spiel. These people always existed before they sadly became institutionalized through false voices often created by competitors as well. You'll have plenty of (cough) "dissatisfied customers" to quote this is certain.

    See above. You keep putting words like "indestructible" in to my mouth for obvious reasons. This very much coincides with your refusal to compare high maintenance CVT systems made out of junk parts (see Airdam Clutch's admittance of same; a man who has tried to 'fix' every single one of them) with this DCT or even the YXZ's recently refined product.
    It's not what you are defending (which we have witnessed none of concerning CVTs versus gear driven machines for obvious reasons) it is the complete lack of it. "It's people like you" (personal) accusals don't win arguments. "It's people like you" accusals only cause folks to wonder if the (current) emperor does indeed have any clothes.

    Lol...how many naysayers implore that the market 'wait awhile' (a year being a lifetime and often the time period advised) so that just as much obsolete product can be sold before the next groundbreaker is unveiled?

    I have faith that enough buyers accept this advice with about as much credence as "bbbbbbbut...it's people like you!!!." causing minds to somehow be poisoned lacking any free comparative will whatsoever.

    "Game changer" (why does the media publishing these two words elicit much less of a response?)
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  19. sand shark

    sand shark Well-Known Member

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    It really does not matter what anyone says to you. You have made up your mind that Honda and all things they make are the gold standard and somehow they are gong to now dictate the market. Sorry it is not going to happen. Can Am and Polaris are the driving force in the sport and trail segment.

    You know when Honda entered the personal watercraft market people thought the were going to change the market. They did not bring anything to the market other than another nice option. Which is what the Talon is to the UTV market.

    Honda is not changing the game. They are adding a twist to the the game. Plain and simple.

    A transmission brings another level of issues that a CVT system does not bring. What you will find out some point next year is that when you want to add those bigger tires it will not be so simple. You will be looking for a gear change so the car can spin those bigger tires.
    Same thing the Yamaha crowd learned. You will also see that in harsh environments leaving it in the auto mode is going to wear out parts in that DCT set up. The sand is going to really put that set up to the test.

    Yes the CVT set up has its downfalls, but it is a simple set up. Anyone can change a belt, if they need to in the field. The manufacturers are getting better at setting them up well from the factory. The clutch kits are relatively cheap and easy to install to fine tune them.

    You are right 104hp is plenty for most. Every weekend out in Glamis is proof many can not handle much more than that. A turbo powered car is no joke and will get you in trouble real quick.


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  20. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Again, Yamaha and now Honda have simply differentiated themselves from the 'me-too' (old tech) segment of the current marketplace now dominated by (amazingly) long-in-the-tooth belt driven cars. Standing alone in a significant manner is a long and expensive investment about to pay off.
    Fact: The UTV driving experience will dictate market share in the 21st century.
    Example: The pure torque experience (minus the motor revving/gear banging/natural sound/feeling available only from Honda/Yamaha) will siphon even more meaningful market share away with fast upcoming electric systems.
    Who will be left?
    The Chinese/3rd world competing with those struggling to capture the remaining and much less profitable bottom segment using me-too rubber band drives. Fact: There is little 'room' left in the UTV marketplace for me-too(s) when a vastly superior experience sucks the air out of markets which bottom feeders cannot access through superior engineering nor funding. Polaris, CanAm and all the others know full well what an extremely risky and guaranteed failed investment any proprietary in-house direct drive system will cost them. They also know that they cannot possibly match the economies of scale nor engineering expertise needed to pull it off. Perhaps some hat-in-hand overtures/partnerships overseas would pose much less of a risk in 'catching up' during 2019 and beyond.

    Honda didn't reinvent the personal watercraft propulsion system. Honda just reinvented the sport UTV propulsion system. Twist? Hardly.

    Again, Honda is not building cars for warranty cheaters or those demanding reliability out of their own wet dreams. Owners are either honest and realistic or they are not. Truck manufacturers don't build their products for the compensating idiots we see on the road or in farm fields either. They eventually pay the exact same consequences and nobody blames the product.

    Yamaha took a chance and got burned until they got it right. The 2019 model is as good as anything out there or better and twice as fun (period). Their drivetrain isn't and never has been but a 'twist'. It is a blast to drive and an experience which the Talon will soon one-up.

    Everyone else is sure hoping so yet the price of being wrong here will be painful for both cvt-betting new owners in 2019 and those left behind competing in the rubber band me-too market moving forward. I'll put my money on the sealed gear drive and Honda engineering versus junk parts (see AirDam's admission) and rubber in abrasive sand-rich harsh environments.

    They are made from sub-standard materials, are a pain in the arse to maintain and (honestly?) nobody wants to ever change a belt let alone be forced to sweat/wrench further to 'improve' anything on a 20K+ car. There, I said it.

    Amen. We may disagree on belts vs gears yet folks need to realize that many have had plenty of good times in a sport UTV with 25% less power than the Talon.
    Gear drives will only change the minds or win the hearts of those appreciating the experience. You might end up being be right in that many younger folk have unfortunately never experienced much off road and often have little desire to research the differences.
     

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