Can-Am Vs. Polaris - Officially Equal?

Discussion in 'Desert Racing' started by JoeyD23, May 9, 2018.

  1. JoeyD23

    JoeyD23 #utvunderground

    Joined:
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    North County San Diego
    Clearly many will debate that the Maverick X3 finally gave Can-Am a real gun for the gun fight the moment it came out, which is true. But those of us glued to the industry would fairly assess that Can-Am racers would need to dial those machines in before they consistently competed at the top, which also proved to be true. In addition, it would take more than just a couple of race teams to give Can-Am a FAIR fight for consistent podium finishes (wins) until the car counts were more evenly spread between the two brands. (RZR always had more machines in the field)

    Despite the fact that Blurton won the Championship last year in BITD & Burnett in SCORE, I think many still gave the RZR the upper hand, myself included. But it seems that the field has finally proven to be competing in an even match when comparing Maverick vs. RZR

    The Turbo results at Silver State have solidified in my mind that we now have a TRUE, and FAIR, fight. While RZR still has the lions share of championships and wins based on history, I feel like the playing field has finally been equalized. Gone are the days of making excuses that RZR has more cars which gives them a better chance to win. For the first time in a very long time, maybe ever, we finally have a legit manufacturer battle for supremacy. The machines are equally matched between the two brands. Both brands have a legit roster of factory racers. Both brands are fully committed to competition. Rules haven also been evenly matched between the two brands furthering parity amongst the competitors. And better yet, the results from race to race show that its truly anyones game!

    At the Silver State 300, 14 Maverick X3's competed in the Turbo class vs. 22 RZR's. RZR still had the upper hand as far as car count. of the 14 Maverick's competing, 10 finished the race while 15 RZR's finished the race. The most important stat, Can-Am took home 1st & 2nd with RZR taking a 3rd. I think whats even more special is that the winner was Logan Gastel, a highly competitive factory backed racer who had yet to win prior to this race showing that there is still a lot of guys competing for wins beyond the usual suspects.

    Can-Am has played their cards well over the past couple of seasons taking a page from their biggest adversary and putting in an adequate effort to build up their roster of racers. UTV desert racing is at an all-time high and many continue to wait for it to plateau and begin its decline. But I don't see this happening anytime soon.

    So, whats your prediction for this season and beyond?

    Do you feel the tables have finally tilted into Can-Am's favor or is RZR still the top dog?

    Going into the summer break, who's your pick to win out and take home the 2018 BITD Pro Turbo season championship?
     
  2. zambo

    zambo Member

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    Nov 13, 2016
    Hahaha. There is zero question in my mind that the x3 is a superior platform. And it should be because its new and the manufacturers are stepping up their game. The new Wildcat is going to be a badass car too, heck its already laying down some great times in the few races its done and when they get some race miles under their belt I expect it to have its share of podiums too. Maybe when Polaris comes out with a new design they'll regain the top spot, but no way they "share" that spot with CanAm right now.
     
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  3. Ratoutahell

    Ratoutahell Active Member

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    Well I have heard that Polaris has a totally new machine to release later this year (not the S) which would be interesting...and when they do Can-Am has a 198HP version of the X3 they will drop. But hey, that is just what I have heard ;)
     
  4. Ratoutahell

    Ratoutahell Active Member

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    But I would say as of right now, both have their goods and bads...being objective if I had the funds to build another car and was not tied to any brand.........man I think I would build an X3....but I sure like working on the Polaris more...agh!!! Good times to be involved lol
     
  5. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

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    What Polaris has done for racing and it's sponsored drivers is unbelievable and any of those guys would be crazy to leave as the platform is obviously good.
    That being said, picking between the two, I like the Can-Am platform better and I think it's starting to prove that it is. It still needs the suspension Limited and a bulkhead to get rid of that crappy single shear design though.
    That being said, I think the new Wildcat platform has real race car suspension and steering geometry and is going to be the best platform yet from the factory.
     
  6. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    For a lot of people who follow this sport (and the lion"s share of those who participate in it) the following (truth?) is most telling:
    ".Gastel,..runs a 2017 Maverick X3 X rs Turbo R side-by-side vehicle that he calls one of the most stock vehicles in the class..It’s really 99% stock, aside from the all the aluminum and mandatory BITD changes. By stock, I mean we run a stock drivetrain, stock clutch, stock ECM and even the frame underneath everything is stock...”

    Since 2014 we've all been spending 20-25K (minimum) to get ourselves into this sport at the next (entry) level. Given that this has priced the average family out of the market, the average consumer starts looking for the first dependable stock platform to take over. This machine was never the Rzr and for a lot of us it was the stupidest financial decision in terms of offroad purchases that we had ever made. Great car...if you had another 10K to keep it on the trail (no 'bling' included).
    The sport needs promotion of bone stock machines racing with the proper safety features mandated to sort the next generation of offerings out. I don't believe that the average consumer out there is all that impressed with what is being raced today.
    But if a (cough) "99%" stock content winner someday becomes a reality at a racetrack near you?
    $25-30K for a car will (finally) become a risk worth taking a chance on.
     
  7. JoeyD23

    JoeyD23 #utvunderground

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    Sims has always claimed the same thing. His race car is like 3 seasons old now too I think which is even more impressive then the fact that it’s mostly “stock”


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  8. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    Mar 29, 2015
    Not to take anything away from Sims as he has obviously been a consistent champion right from the start of the very first races...but my point is that 'stock' isn't being realistically defined in terms of a financially attainable racing class every year (by design) and if it was, a lot of these (US based) brutal races wold be raced differently not to mention field more participants.
    Go to Sim's Facebook page back in March and there's a new motor sitting next to the old one along with a new car being built. Everybody understands that this is what must be done to maintain his brutal schedule and that his empty motor frame resembles nothing that the rest of us have in our garages. (although its pretty close as compared to most others).
    If we nationwide raced plain Jane stock (Turbo and non) with safety features added only we would easily sort who has the best machine out there on a regular basis. Perhaps they do this out East and in the Midwest more than I'm aware of yet the question in the title of this thread will only be solved in that manner on a daily basis moving forward.
    Perhaps I'm biased too in believing that the average fan would rather see a family roll up in their old open trailer with a picnic basket in hand ready to race with the fans picking racing heroes from that (real) scenario. Compare this scenario to what the sport first became (instantly) when one of the Gordons wadded up that first Rzr ever raced, the pics of same became an instant controversy and the race (afterwards) was bitterly fought over.
    Simpler is better.
     
  9. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
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    arizona
    Legacy, please define " financially attainable " for us. Even if you raced bone stock vehicles you still have entry fees, tracker fees, Chase trucks and crews that need fuel food and lodging, Etc.
    These brutal races were already going on before UTV's join the scene so they're not going to change them around to be raced the way you want them to be raced. Sims car is about as close to stock as you can be and still meet safety requirements.
    These races are a torture test on engines,transmissions, drivetrain, suspension design, etc and why us desert rats like to use this for comparison. Is it a perfect scenario? No its not because driving abilty and understanding how hard you can drive without braking your car is a big factor.
    I am sure most racers believe the brand they are racing is the best and that is fine but there is so much more involved that there is no definitive answer, just opinions.
     
  10. utvwolfpack

    utvwolfpack Member

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    May 21, 2014
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    Santa Ana, California
    I think Can Am came to the table with a capable Machine but I also think they had to come to the table with something since all the other manufacturers have brought machines to the table that have been half hearted. Take the YXZ it is a great motor and trans package and fell short with the suspension. Kawasaki has farm vehicles and dabbled in racing but looks like they gave up already since you see no support or vehicles really racing anymore. Now the X3 came out and has both great motor and suspension but fell short on Chasis engineering with all the single shear front and rear that keeps breaking. The Wildcat has yet to prove itself "Even with top drivers" but I think it is still working out the bugs. Supposedly CF Moto has something we shall see. Hopefully Honda and Kawasaki bring something because they make great dirtbikes. Now Take the Polaris platform, this machine was designed 4-5 years ago and still dominates all series of racing and was built great as an all around machine. I am sure they have a weapon up their sleeve that will be dropped soon. You think they haven't had something in the works!!!! Why would they drop a new car too early when they already dominate the racing and sales. Polaris sales 12-1. Regardless of who is winning right this second I think that competition is great for the sport and will only push these manufacturers to build even better machines every year.
     
  11. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

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    " Dominates all series of racing"? You could have said that a couple of years ago but not now.
     
  12. zambo

    zambo Member

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    Nov 13, 2016
    IMO, spending over 100k to turn a UTV into what amounts to a crappy class10 car is not only foolish and ridiculous waste of money but a sure fire way to kill the sport. I know it doesn’t happen overnight but when people realize they need to pony up that kind of cash to be competitive then they’ll just do what I would do and that’s buy an actual class 10 car that will still be worth something 5 years down the road.

    I know NORRA isn’t the Baja 1000, but I raced in the Stock Turbo class and it was awesome in my stock x3. All the cars in the class had opening doors, stock fuel tanks, radiators up front, etc and they were just as fast, in fact faster, than the modified UTVs. And because they were stock, the racing was TIGHT! On one short stage on the second day, the difference between 1st place and 5th place was 15 seconds. That is racing fellas. Another example, on the last day my car finished the second to last stage of the race 20th overall. We finished the last stage of the race 10th overall. Again I know its not SCORE, but we beat a LOT of big, fast vehicles in our stock x3, and that was after 1300 miles of racing so it wasn’t just a one and done sprint. It is a true testament to the capability of a stock UTV in 2018.

    If you ask me, the way to go is to keep the race cars as stock as possible so as to not let some guy come in and just spend his way to the podium. This used to not be possible because a stock UTV from ten years ago couldn’t finish one of these races but that isn’t true any more. Make it a driver’s class in mostly comparable vehicles. Let the manufacturers battle each other to build the fastest, most durable vehicles.
     
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  13. 702sandman

    702sandman Member

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    Sep 12, 2015
    We have to keep the motor stock, turbo stock, and suspension mounting points stock. This is our first seanson desert racing and from what I can see it doesn't matter how much money you spend you can't buy a finish! I have seen the best drivers in the game on the side of the road flipped over, missing a whole front corner, and coming into the pits missing a whole rear corner. In my opinion this is a great class that is evenly matched up between the manufactures. I know I can afford to drive a class 10 car but I choose to race a UTV and it's been a blast for me and my daughter.
     
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  14. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    It's as if 'how dare' you speak of a racing class or heavens sake 'race' which doesn't include or NEED the latter. As you listen to yourself claim that particular class as the end all be all of this sport until the end of time...does it give you even a 'hint' as to why so many of us out here in the real world cannot even in the slightest relate to these races or worse yet the drivers/teams?

    Who said that anything had to be "changed" in what class? Is the mere 'thought' of your average Rzr, Maverick (etc.) owner mixing it up on the same course (heck, we might as well run them first as your class has all the latest expensive suspension to handle the track afterwards) in much less expensive cars THAT repulsive to the monied and/or sponsored today? Can't we mere 'peons' in this sport field a safe car without all of the Sims bling (sorry, he runs a bone stock car minus 'just' the safety features, I forgot) or would that not 'please' the factory or the 100K car owners demanding that we NOT sort these cars/pure driver skills out the only way possible?

    Why can't an average Joe run the exact same U.S. course in a bone stock car and ask afterwards who ran the better race? Is it because he doesn't have money, a sponsor, a big head...or what? Could it be that 'skill' might just play a larger part in finishing that race/keeping that car together?

    So a guy with 100K wrapped up in his car (minimum) with every aftermarket part known to man suspending his ass off the ground/saving it through every single obstacle thrown his way is a better driver than a guy racing the same course with nothing but what the factory gave him that afternoon racing guys with the exact same advantage. Do you understand now why there are no (relatable) driving heroes in this sport nor concerted efforts to make the everyday STOCK car safer?(first and foremost?).

    Bottom line: These are lightly built cars needing widely disseminated research involving safety features first. Once a stock class is established around these realities reliability evolves around the least expensive methods to race them week in and week out. Sales flow to the first manufacturer who figures this out without painting fantasies as the circuit is portrayed today.

    But then again, I'm not talking to people who give a rat's arse about the common man, how much he sacrificed to even 'own' one of these (stock) cars or whether he or she should have an opportunity (just like they do) to race them. I'm speaking to a bunch of s*****d b***s who can't even agree on whether it is moral or not to nerf or wreck the car in front of them...damn what the rules clearly outline or not.

    In a stock class? We'd simply ban you for life...and that would be that. Why? Because it's that whole silly teaching our children what's right and what's wrong thing, demanding that RULES be followed and putting SAFETY in these cars first.

    Arrogance would have no place in a bone stock class...period.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  15. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

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    Feb 10, 2009
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    arizona
    Lol Legacy, nice job putting words in my mouth. I asked a legitimate question that you didnt answer. Have you been to one of these races and met the racers and looked at the cars? I am guessing not but you seem to have it all figured out.

    Out of curiosity have you ever competed in any form of motorsports? You can go bracket race your grocery getter at the local drag strip and win if you have a decent understanding of dial in times and making the car run the same elapsed time. Oh and you have to be good on the light.

    I have never entered a Baja or BITD race with my own car. I have however won alot at local desert races,short course races, GP races and had people offer to let me race there cars in these bigger races and won. It is expensive to race the big series and I cant afford it but I dont begrudge the people that can.

    Getting on the Internet and being shitty to people because you cant afford it isn't going to get you anywhere.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  16. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    You're simply not understanding the premise (getting back to the roots of American racing) which begs the question as to whether you are simply caught up in the 1900 fantasy world as so many (not all) obviously are.
    A lot of us simply believe that the best production car debate will never be resolved as you obviously believe it should be (through thousands of dollars of aftermarket add-ons right off the production floor).
    We don't have that kind of money, we don't want to spend that kind of money if we had it...and we just want to ride or even 'race' without the factory offering us $250 'vouchers' for crappy engineering/even worse parts/workmanship as a consolation for our 25K offroad investment.
     
  17. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

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    Lol Legacy I said the debate is opinion which people are allowed to have. There is plenty of grassroots racing going on everywhere so does EVERYTHING have to be grassroots?

    The beauty of Baja is its the pinacle of the sport and YOU could show up and race if you had the DESIRE!
     
  18. It'sYourLegacy

    It'sYourLegacy Banned Por Vida

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    The only "allowable" opinion on this forum (save Joey's grace extended to others) is much too often the opinion of racers/teams (obviously) blessed with big factory/aftermarket sponsorships. As long as any other racer sticks with the herd; they are left alone. Stray from it? (i.e. George or anybody else who gives us the true story of what goes on out there on the course)...you receive the exact same response that i just did whether I speak direct or am 'charitable' or not. Safety talk? Nobody wants to go on record when the inevitable tragically occurs (and it sadly will).

    It's as if you refuse to listen and for the 3rd time nobody has ever said this. We are looking for a SAFE (mandated equipment) completely stock/latest machine standard (whatever is released to legitimate mass production or reasonably under that HP/design) Joe six pack class on major race days somewhere in the western United States where everything basically happens in the sport. Newsflash: the average sxs enthusiast does not give a rip whether factories or aftermarket suppliers agree with this. We are looking to purchase the best machine for the best price with the least modifications afterwards (what a concept of old from the first days of Nascar).


    Another Newsflash:
    I am certain that the citizens of the country that you refer to love that race. We here enjoy following it.
    Yet to inset 'Baja' in to a conversation revolving around average enthusiasts and their choice for the best car out there? You are actually making my point as to how disconnected UTV racing has become to the average family buying these (extremely) lightly built cars. The people in your very isolated world might believe that Baja sells cars. I'm simply here to suggest that 99% of the (peon) buyers out here would rather see their own cars raced every week not a Frankensteined financially unattainable version nor a conversation (see this topic) revolving around something other than apples to apples on the showroom floor.
     
  19. tatum

    tatum Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
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    arizona
    Another news flash...when you buy a UTV its not a race car!! There is certain mods that have to take place to make it SAFE to race. LOORS, WORCS, and even BITD have cars that look like yours but the HAVE to have doors,nets, race legal cage to be SAFE. If thats not good enough for you I dont know what to tell you.

    You continue to put words in my mouth with your comments as I never said Baja sells cars, I said anybody could race it if they desired. You are the disconnected person who is making up stats to suit your narrative. Why dont you come out of your ISOLATED world and come out to the races and meet the racers. I have personally helped people get into the sport and set up there cars just as I was helped buy fellow competitor's when I built my first Rhino.

    BTW whats going on with Geoge on the race course isn't whats going on with everyone.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  20. george.felix

    george.felix George

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    Jan 11, 2015
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Why does my name always come up here.... what happens on the race course in not a secret. I'm not even sure what your inference is but I think everyone will agree we are more considerate and less cars being destroyed by other cars if thats what your talking about. Part of that is the push to pass and maybe partially we're evolving idk.

    As for racing a stock car Tatum is right they don't come 100% race ready but with a few mods they can be quite capable. Desert racing will always be about preserving the car and will never be 100% who's the most skilled driver. Truth is its a little of both mostly persevere the car. I don't care how much you spend on aftermarket parts you can destroy the car. SO IMO THE BEST DRIVER ARGUMENT AS IT WAS DESCRIBED IN PURE FORM IS A MOOT POINT.

    Near bone stock cars compete in a lot of series they just don't have many in BITD and its not realistic to use Baja as a benchmark for anything its in a league of its own and always will be. Bottom line is your average race can go out to the Polaris dealer and buy a car on Friday and race it on Sat and be competitive if he's smart about how to drive the car. FYI, Ive seen $100K race cars DNF in the first 20 miles because the driver wasn't using his head so I'm not sure what this discussion is about......FYI Tatum no two race teams are alike as you know but over the course of a season we all experience the same issues in one way or another in a general sense.....no one is spared or immune its all about prep and working the reoccurring issues out. Lastly, since such a fuss being made over $$$ spent. I'll speak for myself when I say were going back to basics....what I mean is stock exhaust, motor, stock carrier bearing and driveline. The kind of upgrades we do to the car have more to do with longevity than performance. Like upgrade bearings in trans and front diff. Stock steering rack is fine as are all the electrical components. Other than the cage and safety gear we changed the suspension.....that's the only material change from a stock XP 1000 on the component side. We even use the stock Walker Evans shocks but they are rebuilt for the heavy car. Tires, wheels, axles are aftermarket just like everyone Joe Blow weekend warrior. So if your saying you have to spend more on fancy parts your wrong....I think Brandon Sims will agree.
     

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