BITD weight and teardown

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
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If you read Joeys report on the Parker 250, or you were racing the Parker 250, then you know something about the scales being brought to tech to weigh all the race cars. You also know that i refused to allow my car to be weighed. I will explain the reasons.

1. There is no weight limit in the rulebook, except if you look at the tubing size for the weight of the car.

2. The BITD UTV tech person is also an entrant in the class.

3. When i asked why my car was to be scaled, the answer i received was, for data collection purposes. Not a good reason, especially when the competition is the one taking the data.

4. The next answer i was given, was that BITD officials had the right to do it if they want and they also have the right to pull the motor out of the car if they want.

5. Only weight data was taken, there was no record of wether a car was a 4 seater, or a 2 seater, or had 1 spare tire, or 2 spare tires, or no spares. How large was the fuel cell, did it have fuel in it or not and if so how much, are there tools on the car and how much and how heavy are there or maybe there are none, was the a jack on the car, spare parts, etc etc.....

6. I also refused because i was made aware of the discussion on my next post.
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
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engine teardown,
I was made aware at tech that there would be 2 random races this year that the top 3 cars would have the top end tore down in order to measure engine displacement. The re-assembly of the top end would be at the car owners expense. This rule is not in the rulebook. The rulebook states:
PROTESTS <O:p</O:p
SGP1: The director, with or without protest, has the right to penalize, fine, disqualify, and/or suspend any vehicle or entrant for violation of any Best In The Desert Racing Association/The American Off-Road Racing Series rules. Another entrant within the same class may make technical protests as the entrant being protested. A five hundred-dollar ($500) cash fee must accompany protests for each item protested. The protest must be in writing along with the fee and be delivered to the chief steward or Director no later than 30 minutes after the official end of time limit. If the protest is proved valid the $500 fee will be returned to the protestor. If the protest is proved invalid the $500 goes to the person who was protested. Protests considered by the chief steward that shows a lack of sportsmanship may not be accepted. The chief steward will direct the technical director to check the protested items. The decision of the race steward and director will be final. Interpretation of all rules along with violations and penalties thereof are at the discretion of Best In The Desert Racing Association. Penalties levied at the discretion of Best In The Desert Racing Association are final.


After being told by tech inspector/competitor this, and the scale rule that doesnt exist, the Cognito team believed that we should stand up for what we feel is the majority of the class, and not let rules be injected on the fly by a competitor/inspector that seam very questionable. This teardown is available for anyone for a fee of $500 which is refundable is accused competitor is indeed over the engine displacement limit. If i am within rules i should not bear the burden of reassembly at no compensation.
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
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Arizona
This same thing comes up every year and it always ends the same way. Casey steps in and says like it or move on. Curious, did you talk to Casey about this?

Cory is a simple guy. He is making sure that everyone is safe with a good strong cage. He doesnt have the time or money to go out and spend on equipment to find out if your cage is really legal. He simply did what he could with what he has. If you have a better idea on how to check the legality of cages, please let Cory know, Im sure he will listen.
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
7
8
Arizona
Actually Cory has access to a tube x-ray machine and will be bringing it to the mint is what he told me. This will allow him to verify.
If life was only that simple. What your really saying is that everyone has access to an x-ray machine as they are sold over the counter, without a prescription ;)
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
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Arizona
LOL...here we go, Weighing a car is not a viable way to check tubing size.
So says the guy with "cognitomotorsports" in his email address.

When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Lets be honest with each other here. Nobody is looking at Cognito motorsports for illegal parts.
 

JoeyD23

#utvunderground
Jan 9, 2009
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If life was only that simple. What your really saying is that everyone has access to an x-ray machine as they are sold over the counter, without a prescription ;)
NO!

What I AM SAYING is Cory TOLD ME at the conclusion of Tech on Friday that HE WILL BE BRINGING AN X-RAY SCANNER to the MINT race. This is a tool he has access too via Lucas OIl Off Road Racing that he also works at and used to be tech official for UTV's at. That is what I am saying.
 

JoeyD23

#utvunderground
Jan 9, 2009
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When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Yeah, maybe you need to look further at what the builder did to not build a heavy pig? Why is it when someone does something better they are first assumed to be cheaters and not just BETTER at something?
 

FABWERX1

Member
May 31, 2011
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If they ( he )can minipulate the rules however they feel then, why have them in the first place. Plus that was a lame excuse how to determine material thickness due to so many variables in how or what a car has on it. Im glad Cognito refused to have there car wieghed. Im sure some think refusing is admitting guilt,i would have done the same.
Stick to the rule book and dont impliment new rules every event. Otherwise HDRA is going to have more utv's.
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
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So says the guy with "cognitomotorsports" in his email address.

When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Lets be honest with each other here. Nobody is looking at Cognito motorsports for illegal parts.
A logical person will understand that tubing thickness will not make a hundred pound difference. A logical person would account for all the other crap on the car when scaling a car, and not completely omit those things. Tools, spares, and lead bars are not standard issue here.
 

M1028

New Member
May 29, 2012
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So says the guy with "cognitomotorsports" in his email address.

When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Lets be honest with each other here. Nobody is looking at Cognito motorsports for illegal parts.
The weight difference between a 1.75" .120 wall cage and 1.75 .095 is only between 20-40 lbs depending on the cage. You could shed a little more running .065 but it's only another 20lbs or so. It's easy to determine .065 because I have yet to see a bender not stretch the material a little.
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
7
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Arizona
Yeah, maybe you need to look further at what the builder did to not build a heavy pig? Why is it when someone does something better they are first assumed to be cheaters and not just BETTER at something?
Are you serious? This isnt F1. There are only so many ways to beef up a UTV to run in the Desert and all the bars and bracing can be seen with the naked eye. These builds are well documented right here on your web site, so if one knows anything about car construction, they will see if they saved weight with building a new and different way. Im kind of curious who this new builder is that is really thinking outside the box and not building a pig.

BTW - did you see the results of the weigh in for all the cars minus one? I did. They all seem pretty porky to me.
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
788
197
43
This same thing comes up every year and it always ends the same way. Casey steps in and says like it or move on. Curious, did you talk to Casey about this?

Cory is a simple guy. He is making sure that everyone is safe with a good strong cage. He doesnt have the time or money to go out and spend on equipment to find out if your cage is really legal. He simply did what he could with what he has. If you have a better idea on how to check the legality of cages, please let Cory know, Im sure he will listen.
I will not discuss anything regarding Casey out of respect. He has asked we do not include him in forum discussion, only in person.
 

smiller

Member
Jun 28, 2012
44
0
6
Lets settle down a bit...

Lets not speculate why Sappington wanted to weight the cars.

If saftey is the main reason to start checking material thickness, then so be it. But I think it (how ever they want to check for it)should be done at the first race that the vehicle is entered in and then a permanent tag can be given to the car.

As for a motor tear down that is not being protested by another racer. I think that is a little much. Tearing a motor down in the middle of the desert for no good reason is just a big risk and a waste of money for that racer to have to rebuild it. I think Sappington should be included in the first random tear down just to show good faith.
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
7
8
Arizona
A logical person will understand that tubing thickness will not make a hundred pound difference. A logical person would account for all the other crap on the car when scaling a car, and not completely omit those things. Tools, spares, and lead bars are not standard issue here.
Actually, it will and has and who puts lead bars into a desert racing UTV?

A logical person will see that just about every car carries around the same equipment including tools, jack, spares and many have the same aftermarket fuel cell. Your RZR and the Jagged RZR's are not that far off as they roll off from the start of each race.
 

apexin

Member
Apr 15, 2011
63
7
8
Arizona
I will not discuss anything regarding Casey out of respect. He has asked we do not include him in forum discussion, only in person.
Understood and appreciate your integrity. Ive been there many times for that in person discussion and Im curious how it went. You could always PM me and not make it public.
 

Rusty5150

UTVUG PHOTOG
Jan 9, 2009
3,527
332
83
Here is a chart I found on Pirate4x4.

So based on these numbers if you built a UTV using 200 foot of 1.75" .095 tubing instead of .120 wall you would save 82lbs.

Chrome-Moly Tensile Stength = 90,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.120 1.51 0.61 55,303 $6.63 2.089 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 44,453 $6.59 1.679 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 39,119 $8.17 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 46,821 $6.01 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 37,738 $5.74 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 33,253 $5.51 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 38,339 $5.65 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 31,023 $5.44 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 27,386 $5.50 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 29,857 $5.54 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 24,308 $5.42 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 21,519 $5.39 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 17,183 $4.98 .6491 lb

DOM Tensile Stength = 70,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.125 1.50 0.64 44,668 $5.54 2.169 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 34,575 $5.36 1.596 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 30,426 $5.23 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 36,416 $5.18 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 29,352 $5.92 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 25,863 $5.61 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 29,819 $5.28 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 24,129 $5.00 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 21,300 $5.57 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 23,222 $5.00 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 18,906 $5.00 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 16,737 $5.00 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 13,365 $5.00 .6490 lb

HREW Tensile Stength = 40,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.120 1.51 0.61 24,579 $5.20 2.089 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 19,757 $5.06 1.596 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 17,386 $5.11 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 20,809 $5.16 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 16,772 $5.00 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 14,779 $5.00 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 17,039 $5.04 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 13,788 $5.00 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 12,172 $5.00 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 13,270 $5.00 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 10,804 $5.00 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 9,564 $5.00 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 7,637 $5.00 .6490 lb
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
788
197
43
Actually, it will and has and who puts lead bars into a desert racing UTV?

A logical person will see that just about every car carries around the same equipment including tools, jack, spares and many have the same aftermarket fuel cell. Your RZR and the Jagged RZR's are not that far off as they roll off from the start of each race.
My point is, if someone want to appear heavy and hose the scale results, someone can throw some lead in the floor board, glove box, etc and add 50 lbs to a car in seconds before they roll over the scales. And then after tech, remove the lead in seconds, And none of that lead has anything to do with safety or tubing size.
 

JoeyD23

#utvunderground
Jan 9, 2009
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Are you serious? This isnt F1. There are only so many ways to beef up a UTV to run in the Desert and all the bars and bracing can be seen with the naked eye. These builds are well documented right here on your web site, so if one knows anything about car construction, they will see if they saved weight with building a new and different way. Im kind of curious who this new builder is that is really thinking outside the box and not building a pig.

BTW - did you see the results of the weigh in for all the cars minus one? I did. They all seem pretty porky to me.

Have you ever seen a guy take all the dzues tabs, buttons, springs, nuts and bolts that are on their race car, put them in a bucket and weigh them? I have... there are guys who do everything they can to keep weight down in ways that others just ignore. Skid plate thickness, amount of aluminum panelling, types and amount of lights, wheel & tire combo, suspension construction, shock selection, etc etc etc etc... My point is, if a guy builds a car and it weighs hundreds of pounds less then he should be congratulated IMO and not just assumed to be cheating on tube wall thickness... to be honest, I don't even know what you are debating or defending anymore? And is there a racer that people are even concerned with in terms of tubing size? Cory told me he did this to keep racers on their toes, just like at LOORRS they would randomly one race test fuel, next race measure track width, etc. Mix it up so that the racers remain honest not knowing what they will check at tech next.

You first said that if a car is hundreds of pounds lighter then similar style cars then it needs to be inspected closer. Inspected by who? This isn't lucas oil, there is no WEIGHT rule.

Cory is doing the right thing at the Mint by bringing the proper tool to check the rule he is concerned with. But Cognito has a solid point, weighing a car will never determine tube wall thickness.. as similar as these cars look, none of them are built the same except for the Jagged X twin cars and even those have differences.
 

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