2014 King Of The Hammers - YES there will be a UTV Race!
- Thread starter JoeyD23
- Start date
Get some B!How can anyone be over the KOH?I'll race this race till I'm crowned, then I'll race it again and again
Word I got was two classes. Sportsman and Pro. Limited to 1000cc. No engine swaps, turbo, etc.. Must be a production UTV. Less rules on what you can do to the car. Safety stuff still there though.
Sounds like fun.
So this is where you guys hang out?
It isn't a well kept secret that I'm having a tough time communicating with UTV guys. All of that is on me and would like to make that better.
I logged in today to clear up any rumors.
I definitley want there to be a UTV presence at KOH and all Ultra4 races. I am struggling with the balance to keep the price point low while providing the 'perks' it seems that most of you want.
1) I saw that there is talk about moving the UTV race to Wednesday for whatever reasons.
I am leaning towards that because your vehicles have a completely different performance pattern than stock and mod. You are significantly faster in the desert that stock and most mod, but not as fast or capable than most of them in the rocks. It leads to a bad traffic jam that isn't good for anyone.
I don't agree that it is bad for you guys PR wise. The race will be tied into to our Time Trial show both onsite and on Live Coverage
I won't have to spread cameraman across the whole desert trying to get Mods and UTVs, they can more effectively follow the race.
I think it is a good move, but would love to hear your opinions.
2) Class changes.
I still can't make sense of the classes we had last year. But from my perspective, there are 2 classes. Those that want to win, and those that want an adventure. If you want to win, pay a little more, and take home money. If you want an adventure, pay less and peel out.
As far as performance, trying to make rules to govern performance in an industry with such 'young' and emerging technology is futile.
Run what you brung, but it seems we need to have some 'sanity' caps. 1000CC's of what is Production style power plant.
In my mind I just don't want someone to drop a LS motor in a sxs and go nuts, we have Ultra4 for that special kind of awesome.
I don' think I care if it's a rotax/canam/GSXR motor. Dependability goes alot further in this kind of racing than pure speed.
What is a good way to ensure the integrity of the class?
3) Big Rich taking over the race. I honestly have no clue how this rumor got traction. Rich helped with the big race last year and remains a great partner. I don't see how I can seperate the business and risk management of having someone else running a race in the middle of my event.
I would rather put extra effort into working through the rough patches.
I don't have alot of opportunity to get on the forums, but my cell is usually always on. If you have any questions, concerns, gripes, or jokes... give me a call 909 273 0216
I realize that it's easier for me to communicate with the Ultra4 guys because I have been racing with and againist them for over a decade. I'm an outsider to your group of racing and haven't done a good job trying to change that.
In the end you are going to get blunt and direct feedback from me.
I want UTV's racing. It's good for our events.
I would LOVE to have them at our series events. We are investing alot of money to pull spectators to our series events next year. You guys are a good show. I've got it down to $100/race for sportsman.
This is kinda the make or break year for UTV's with me. We either get on the same page and start finding value in each other or maybe we should move on.
I have joked about golf carts and I have openly slammed some of the guys in this class for being massive whiners.
I have respect for anyone that works their butt off to build a race car, takes time away from their family, plops down a big chunk of cash and straps a helmet on.
I'm looking foward to 2014. Give me your feedback and help me drive this the right way.
Dave
It isn't a well kept secret that I'm having a tough time communicating with UTV guys. All of that is on me and would like to make that better.
I logged in today to clear up any rumors.
I definitley want there to be a UTV presence at KOH and all Ultra4 races. I am struggling with the balance to keep the price point low while providing the 'perks' it seems that most of you want.
1) I saw that there is talk about moving the UTV race to Wednesday for whatever reasons.
I am leaning towards that because your vehicles have a completely different performance pattern than stock and mod. You are significantly faster in the desert that stock and most mod, but not as fast or capable than most of them in the rocks. It leads to a bad traffic jam that isn't good for anyone.
I don't agree that it is bad for you guys PR wise. The race will be tied into to our Time Trial show both onsite and on Live Coverage
I won't have to spread cameraman across the whole desert trying to get Mods and UTVs, they can more effectively follow the race.
I think it is a good move, but would love to hear your opinions.
2) Class changes.
I still can't make sense of the classes we had last year. But from my perspective, there are 2 classes. Those that want to win, and those that want an adventure. If you want to win, pay a little more, and take home money. If you want an adventure, pay less and peel out.
As far as performance, trying to make rules to govern performance in an industry with such 'young' and emerging technology is futile.
Run what you brung, but it seems we need to have some 'sanity' caps. 1000CC's of what is Production style power plant.
In my mind I just don't want someone to drop a LS motor in a sxs and go nuts, we have Ultra4 for that special kind of awesome.
I don' think I care if it's a rotax/canam/GSXR motor. Dependability goes alot further in this kind of racing than pure speed.
What is a good way to ensure the integrity of the class?
3) Big Rich taking over the race. I honestly have no clue how this rumor got traction. Rich helped with the big race last year and remains a great partner. I don't see how I can seperate the business and risk management of having someone else running a race in the middle of my event.
I would rather put extra effort into working through the rough patches.
I don't have alot of opportunity to get on the forums, but my cell is usually always on. If you have any questions, concerns, gripes, or jokes... give me a call 909 273 0216
I realize that it's easier for me to communicate with the Ultra4 guys because I have been racing with and againist them for over a decade. I'm an outsider to your group of racing and haven't done a good job trying to change that.
In the end you are going to get blunt and direct feedback from me.
I want UTV's racing. It's good for our events.
I would LOVE to have them at our series events. We are investing alot of money to pull spectators to our series events next year. You guys are a good show. I've got it down to $100/race for sportsman.
This is kinda the make or break year for UTV's with me. We either get on the same page and start finding value in each other or maybe we should move on.
I have joked about golf carts and I have openly slammed some of the guys in this class for being massive whiners.
I have respect for anyone that works their butt off to build a race car, takes time away from their family, plops down a big chunk of cash and straps a helmet on.
I'm looking foward to 2014. Give me your feedback and help me drive this the right way.
Dave
If you truly are going to charge $100 for sportsman racers, i could imagine a good turnout... seems like price point is a huge factor for a lot of people. It would be smart for a lot of people that want to give it a shot, be the sportsman champ one year then step up to the pro class! !! As far as rules, maybe nothing over 4 cylinders, otherwise build it and bash it
I'm not a racer anymore, but I do pay attention to racing and what works. Seems to me there should be two classes.
1. Pro class-1200 cc max on engines currently produced for UTVs ( but no special, one off, motorcycle, snowmobile, or aftermarket engines) which allows mods to stock engines,..... and unlimited suspension.
2. Sportsman- 800 cc , UTV production only, which pretty much incorporates most lower cc engines produced today for UTVs, .....also with unlimited suspension.
Oh hell, as Dave and every other promoter knows, you cannot produce enough classes to incorporate every friggen thing that gives some advantage to someone else to try to even things out.
Just look at Nascar! For Chist's sake, they measure the weight of your push rods. Does it even things out? Perhaps on speed but it makes the race boring because it is now pit stops and tire strategy that determines the race, not the fastest car and driver.
Just keep it simple! Money generaly determines the outcome of most races anyway but at least the underfunded teams have a class to compete in, if you don't allow specialty power plants to be the norm.
I think it was obvious this year that the EMC vehicles really hindered the UTVs, preventing many to finish in the time allotted. That much really needs to change!
1. Pro class-1200 cc max on engines currently produced for UTVs ( but no special, one off, motorcycle, snowmobile, or aftermarket engines) which allows mods to stock engines,..... and unlimited suspension.
2. Sportsman- 800 cc , UTV production only, which pretty much incorporates most lower cc engines produced today for UTVs, .....also with unlimited suspension.
Oh hell, as Dave and every other promoter knows, you cannot produce enough classes to incorporate every friggen thing that gives some advantage to someone else to try to even things out.
Just look at Nascar! For Chist's sake, they measure the weight of your push rods. Does it even things out? Perhaps on speed but it makes the race boring because it is now pit stops and tire strategy that determines the race, not the fastest car and driver.
Just keep it simple! Money generaly determines the outcome of most races anyway but at least the underfunded teams have a class to compete in, if you don't allow specialty power plants to be the norm.
I think it was obvious this year that the EMC vehicles really hindered the UTVs, preventing many to finish in the time allotted. That much really needs to change!
Garret, I will pay your entry fee for you to compete, whatever it is!If you truly are going to charge $100 for sportsman racers, i could imagine a good turnout... seems like price point is a huge factor for a lot of people. It would be smart for a lot of people that want to give it a shot, be the sportsman champ one year then step up to the pro class! !! As far as rules, maybe nothing over 4 cylinders, otherwise build it and bash it
With all due respect, I dont think you're going to find anyone around here that believes this to be true. Especially those who were in the race.
Agreed! The "GSXR" remark, I dont care so long as the cars all have functioning 4wd. Also believe cc's should be limited to 1000.....
Also like the idea of 2 classes. How we ever started having 6 classes is beyond me.
Please dont kill the UTV class Dave! For many of us, this is the race we live for. Everything in between is just practice for the following KOH!
Lastly, please dont judge our group because of a few bad apples. Ive heard the stories. If theyre that bad, boot them from the event. Hell, call them out here. We'll straighten them out.....
I completely agree on Sportsman and Pro classes only. The difference between prod 1000 and unlimited was insignificant last year and those two classes made up 80% or more of the entries.
In my mind, Pro should have a box to fit in, but keep it simple. ISA rules are good for short course, but not KOH. Moving a racer to Unlimited because they don't have factory floorboard is ridiculous for KOH. Here are a few thoughts:
Somehow must keep the flavor of a UTV, make it fair but not overbearing for people to get creative.
Must be a production UTV with a CVT transmission.
No engine swaps (snowmobile, R1, etc.). Maybe Rotax in a Rhino or whatever, but I think this confuses things.
No turbos, blowers, etc.
1000cc max
Stock frame rails?
Safety equipment
In my mind, Pro should have a box to fit in, but keep it simple. ISA rules are good for short course, but not KOH. Moving a racer to Unlimited because they don't have factory floorboard is ridiculous for KOH. Here are a few thoughts:
Somehow must keep the flavor of a UTV, make it fair but not overbearing for people to get creative.
Must be a production UTV with a CVT transmission.
No engine swaps (snowmobile, R1, etc.). Maybe Rotax in a Rhino or whatever, but I think this confuses things.
No turbos, blowers, etc.
1000cc max
Stock frame rails?
Safety equipment
I here ya. The fast guys were really fast. There was a UTV clearance sale at the bottom of Aftershock though that gave mod and stock guys headaches too.
The solution is pretty simple. Don't race on the same day. The spotlight won't be any less...just more focused. It will be good action to intertwine into our Time Trial coverage.
I'm leaning towards Time Trials for the Pro UTV's and Mod guys as well. Will kind of end that argument huh?
Dave, what is it exactly you need/want from the UTV group to keep our race alive? We've heard this and that but need to know exactly what you are looking for.
I agree on the 2 classes, 1000cc limit, stock shock locations.
I think for the most point the ISA rules (not the classes) would work for safety.
Alum Roof, 6 point cage (bolt ons allowed), non opening doors, fire ext and suits, rear safety lights, five points.
I started racing KOH mainly due to the fact that it didn't cost me $10,000 to get my car ready.
Lets get all our thoughts together here and I vote Crowdog to be our voice to Dave!
I agree on the 2 classes, 1000cc limit, stock shock locations.
I think for the most point the ISA rules (not the classes) would work for safety.
Alum Roof, 6 point cage (bolt ons allowed), non opening doors, fire ext and suits, rear safety lights, five points.
I started racing KOH mainly due to the fact that it didn't cost me $10,000 to get my car ready.
Lets get all our thoughts together here and I vote Crowdog to be our voice to Dave!
Time trials would make it interesting. Guess I better plan on 1 1/2 weeks on the lakebed.I'm leaning towards Time Trials for the Pro UTV's and Mod guys as well. Will kind of end that argument huh?
I had a great conversation with Dave on the phone today. The guy does give a poopy about UTV's and I am as thrilled as everyone else that we will have UTV's at KOH in 2014.
Some things we discussed on the phone are as follows:
(I apologize if this is re-hashing some of whats already been made clear here)
2 classes for 2014, Pro UTV & Sportsman UTV. Want to go for the $ go race PRO, want to compete for a finish and say you completed KOH race Sportsman. I love the simplicity here.
UTV classes are pretty much a run-what-ya-brung type of set up in terms of what you can race. The machines need to be a factory based UTV meaning it can't be a full one off tube chassis UTV like say the Buckshot Bullet. BUT you can run whatever powersports based engine you want up to 1000cc. Want to run an SR1, go for it, want to put a Rotax in a Rhino or a RZR motor in a Teryx, go for it. The reality is, how many frankenstein machines really enter here? I think we all know the bulk of the machines entered will be factory based. The cool thing about Dave is if this gets out of hand next year he will address it.
Tech will be handled by Dave and his team this year it sounds like. Safety will be the biggest thing, seats, harnesses, cage, door/panels, etc.. the basic safety mods. If someone wants to protest a cheater, put up $500.00 to crack into the engine. If you are right you get your money back if you are wrong the accused gets your $500!
QUALIFYING FOR PRO UTV! I thought this would make everyone racing in the Pro UTV pumped! No more starting based off of the draw. Single lap qualifier will be held the day before the race and wouldn't be so gnarly that you would have to worry about mangling your equipment. It would be a great shakedown if anything!
Race will be on Wednesday this year, all by its lonesome. I am torn on this, but this way EMC guys aren't in our way and our guys aren't in their way. Focus is on us just like King Of The Motos focus is on them. This means qualifying would be on Tuesday.
More will come about over the coming weeks and months but I am glad we are talking Hammers in September and not in January like we were last year. DC is on the ball here and I am confident 2014 will be a great year for UTV's at KOH and with a little luck we may even have our own TV show just for the UTV's at Hammers!!
Some things we discussed on the phone are as follows:
(I apologize if this is re-hashing some of whats already been made clear here)
2 classes for 2014, Pro UTV & Sportsman UTV. Want to go for the $ go race PRO, want to compete for a finish and say you completed KOH race Sportsman. I love the simplicity here.
UTV classes are pretty much a run-what-ya-brung type of set up in terms of what you can race. The machines need to be a factory based UTV meaning it can't be a full one off tube chassis UTV like say the Buckshot Bullet. BUT you can run whatever powersports based engine you want up to 1000cc. Want to run an SR1, go for it, want to put a Rotax in a Rhino or a RZR motor in a Teryx, go for it. The reality is, how many frankenstein machines really enter here? I think we all know the bulk of the machines entered will be factory based. The cool thing about Dave is if this gets out of hand next year he will address it.
Tech will be handled by Dave and his team this year it sounds like. Safety will be the biggest thing, seats, harnesses, cage, door/panels, etc.. the basic safety mods. If someone wants to protest a cheater, put up $500.00 to crack into the engine. If you are right you get your money back if you are wrong the accused gets your $500!
QUALIFYING FOR PRO UTV! I thought this would make everyone racing in the Pro UTV pumped! No more starting based off of the draw. Single lap qualifier will be held the day before the race and wouldn't be so gnarly that you would have to worry about mangling your equipment. It would be a great shakedown if anything!
Race will be on Wednesday this year, all by its lonesome. I am torn on this, but this way EMC guys aren't in our way and our guys aren't in their way. Focus is on us just like King Of The Motos focus is on them. This means qualifying would be on Tuesday.
More will come about over the coming weeks and months but I am glad we are talking Hammers in September and not in January like we were last year. DC is on the ball here and I am confident 2014 will be a great year for UTV's at KOH and with a little luck we may even have our own TV show just for the UTV's at Hammers!!
I would not limit the motor size to 1000cc. With the new RZR 1000 and the CanAm 1000, 1000+cc motor kits will be fairly common. I do agree with the no special, one off, motorcycle, snowmobile, or aftermarket engines. I'd even let power adders in. We all love supercharger and turbo whine.
CVT required. Reverse required.
Stock suspension mounting locations. J-Arms, +width, +length okay. No shock size, number or mounting limitations.
All standard safety rules apply. Game on.
If the factory teams want a factory sponsored class to show off their products let them step up and fund it.
Otherwise let people build cars to push limits and be innovative.